(off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
64 messages Options
1234
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

(off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Leandro Santiago
Hello to all. (Sorry for my bad English, I'm Brazilian, I hope you
understand me, and yes, it's a long text :-))

I'm a qooxdoo fan's, even I being a newbie :-)

I'm thinking in how qooxdoo is a great framework, but it isn't very
know. Many people use other frameworks for RIA,  like Flex (here in
Brazil it's very famous) or Silverlight and they usually spend a lot
of money with these tools and other things.

Flex is know for the MXML dialect. Qooxdoo is incredible and there is
QxTransformer, which as easy as MXML, but it's less know and less
documented (OMG, I needed to look into qxtransform source code to
learn about QXML! :-) ). But it's a wonderful product.

Flex and ActionScript have integration with many IDEs, but so far I
didn't see any IDE with qooxdoo support or even QxTransform support.

The documentation about QxTransformer is out of date (qooxdoo 0.8),
and more complete tutorials about qooxdoo are missing.

I know, it's a community project, but it has the power to be a very
professional if there are companies and other associated projects,
like IDEs and visual tools (for qxtransform).

The next gen web browser are going to use hardware acceleration to
"boost" web pages and web apps. Flash (used by Flex) already uses
hardware acceleration, so it's very fast and has cool animations on
it's interface.  I think qooxdoo could take advantages of threse new
browsers' tecnologies to improve it's performance. Are there any
iniciative in this way? There are also other interesting tecnologies
link video and audio (html5 tag) and even the canvas and svg element
which could be used to enrich the qooxdoo framework.

I'm not complaining. I like qooxdoo and I think that it's its time.
Many systems are migrating to web and unfortunately proprietary and
closed source tecnologies are today the firsts in list of
small/medium/big port companies.

(IMHO) In this case, is essential to create an ecossystem around
qooxdoo. Composed by IDEs, documentation, forums, IRC channels (yes, I
miss a IRC channel :-( ), translation teams, etc.

Thanks you qooxdoo developers.

Best regards.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
Hi Leandro,

On 10 sept. 2010, at 04:55, Leandro Santiago wrote:

> Hello to all. (Sorry for my bad English, I'm Brazilian, I hope you
> understand me, and yes, it's a long text :-))
>
> I'm a qooxdoo fan's, even I being a newbie :-)
>

Welcome !

> I'm thinking in how qooxdoo is a great framework, but it isn't very
> know. Many people use other frameworks for RIA,  like Flex (here in
> Brazil it's very famous) or Silverlight and they usually spend a lot
> of money with these tools and other things.
>

I agree.

> Flex is know for the MXML dialect. Qooxdoo is incredible and there is
> QxTransformer, which as easy as MXML, but it's less know and less
> documented (OMG, I needed to look into qxtransform source code to
> learn about QXML! :-) ). But it's a wonderful product.
>
> Flex and ActionScript have integration with many IDEs, but so far I
> didn't see any IDE with qooxdoo support or even QxTransform support.

That's true, for the javascript part (I personally hate to use XML as a programing language).
It is due to some very positive part of qooxdoo : it is not only a js, but an OO js.
This is why I like qooxdoo but the consequence is that OO layer is not well taken into account by IDE, even javascript IDE.
Also, the Python build toolchain as to be integrated in the IDE.
We did that using Ant script and it works for IntelliJ, Eclipse and NetBeans.
If interested I can post the script that are really small and simple.

> [CUT]


>
> The next gen web browser are going to use hardware acceleration to
> "boost" web pages and web apps. Flash (used by Flex) already uses
> hardware acceleration, so it's very fast and has cool animations on
> it's interface.  I think qooxdoo could take advantages of threse new
> browsers' tecnologies to improve it's performance. Are there any
> iniciative in this way?

Good question. I'm interested ...

> There are also other interesting tecnologies
> link video and audio (html5 tag) and even the canvas and svg element
> which could be used to enrich the qooxdoo framework.
>

Yes and don't forget to mention offline use and local persistence with web database.
http://ajaxian.com/archives/offline-what-does-it-mean-and-why-should-i-care

> [CUT]

>
> (IMHO) In this case, is essential to create an ecossystem around qooxdoo

Yes, fully agree. In France, qooxdoo is mainly unknown.
I was not able to get paid consultancy !
There is an incredible situation for Qooxdoo : so good ant still unknown ... (at least in France, not sure elsewhere)
That's a real problem but strangely very few qooxdoo users appears aware of that as a problem.
I'd be happy to understand why but this would surely become a hot flaming discussion, caution :-)


> Composed by IDEs, documentation, forums, IRC channels (yes, I
> miss a IRC channel :-( ), translation teams, etc.
>

qooxdoo IRC channel : #qooxdoo on irc.freenode.net

> Thanks you qooxdoo developers.
>
> Best regards.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Stefan A
In reply to this post by Leandro Santiago
Hej!

I agree on your interest and I can assure that qooxdoo is the best for many settings. Maybe not satisfies all tastes, but I have not found anything more complete out there. I am sure that the core team will be adding functionality as browsers change. You have to be aware of it is a slow process to upgrade all browsers out there and therefore the work with new implementations must have some degree of backward compatibility.

Fortunately, qooxdoo is definitively one of the, if not the most, advanced javascript framework in the market. The design is really good and in some parts based on excellent new ideas. Javascript is not an easy language to build a framework on! Lots of tricks to get it going...mostly due to a rain forest of wild browsers living their own lives.

Unfortunately, qooxdoo is more or less a garage project from a marketing perspective. Very few know of it in the world. The website is in its functionality average, but its design is already old. Almost no money and too little time is spent on marketing of this fantastic tool. Until that will be done, it will still be in the garage division. Unfortunately development goes fast and the competitors don't wait. Especially not the commercial alternatives. One scenario could be an alliance with one of the big market players. We have not seen this happen so far. If nothing drastic happens, it will still be a small alternative, but maybe still technically the best.

Even though this insecurity due to the market and fame, we chose qooxdoo because the code has been fairly well documented, the structure is robust and it is technically the best. It still has a lot of things to improve, but already now it is the best. We have developed about 1,200,000 lines of "qooxdoo" code and converted a system which soon will "fly"... We are satisfied about it. The support is fast and mostly accurate. The core team is mostly very skilled in its answers. But we would never choose qooxdoo for such a big project without knowing we have our own resources if qooxdoo dies or if the qooxdoo team disappears in some or the other way. Too big investment and too big risk, if we wouldn't have the resources by ourselves.

I hope the above clarifies one of many views from the community.

Stefan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Put your money where your mouth is (Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question)

oetiker
Hi Stefan,

Today Stefan Andersson wrote:

> Unfortunately, qooxdoo is more or less a garage project from a
> marketing perspective. Very few know of it in the world. The
> website is in its functionality average, but its design is
> already old. Almost no money and too little time is spent on
> marketing of this fantastic tool. Until that will be done, it
> will still be in the garage division. Unfortunately development
> goes fast and the competitors don't wait. Especially not the
> commercial alternatives. One scenario could be an alliance with
> one of the big market players. We have not seen this happen so
> far. If nothing drastic happens, it will still be a small
> alternative, but maybe still technically the best.

I think the 'problem' with qooxdoo is, that it is primarily an
in-house tool of 1&1 Internet. They use it for their internal
software development and are thus spending a lot of money on people
working exclusively on developing, maintaining and testing the
system.

And since 1&1 is heavily invested in qooxdoo it is also not likely
to 'just go away'.

Lucky for us they also choose to make the whole thing open source
under a very liberal license ...

Based on this, everything makes sense: the excellent developer
documentation, the intense testing, the release schedule ... but
also the lack of investment in external promotion or website
design.

All the talk about what 'should' be done on the ML will in all
likelihood not result in any action from the core team as they are
not a group of volunteers but employees of 1&1 who spend their time
working on the tasks important to their employer.

If you are in PR or web design or are willing to pay for someone to
come up with pretty templates, and maybe even additional themes. I
guess the qooxdoo core team would not be fighting you :-)
Especially if you talk to them about your intentions beforehand.

What if every company using qooxdoo for their own application
development made a point of spending 2% of their development budget
on improving qooxdoo publicly. Through contributions, promotion,
design.

Put your money where your mouth is!

cheers
tobi

--
Tobi Oetiker, OETIKER+PARTNER AG, Aarweg 15 CH-4600 Olten, Switzerland
http://it.oetiker.ch [hidden email] ++41 62 775 9902 / sb: -9900

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
In reply to this post by Stefan A
Hi Stefan,

I would not be able to summarize as well as you did.
This is the 100% exact copy of what I think :-)

Thanks.

Now, why not consider the second stage : what can we do all as a community ?
Any idea ?

On 10 sept. 2010, at 09:38, Stefan Andersson wrote:

Hej!

I agree on your interest and I can assure that qooxdoo is the best for many settings. Maybe not satisfies all tastes, but I have not found anything more complete out there. I am sure that the core team will be adding functionality as browsers change. You have to be aware of it is a slow process to upgrade all browsers out there and therefore the work with new implementations must have some degree of backward compatibility.

Fortunately, qooxdoo is definitively one of the, if not the most, advanced javascript framework in the market. The design is really good and in some parts based on excellent new ideas. Javascript is not an easy language to build a framework on! Lots of tricks to get it going...mostly due to a rain forest of wild browsers living their own lives.

Unfortunately, qooxdoo is more or less a garage project from a marketing perspective. Very few know of it in the world. The website is in its functionality average, but its design is already old. Almost no money and too little time is spent on marketing of this fantastic tool. Until that will be done, it will still be in the garage division. Unfortunately development goes fast and the competitors don't wait. Especially not the commercial alternatives. One scenario could be an alliance with one of the big market players. We have not seen this happen so far. If nothing drastic happens, it will still be a small alternative, but maybe still technically the best.

Even though this insecurity due to the market and fame, we chose qooxdoo because the code has been fairly well documented, the structure is robust and it is technically the best. It still has a lot of things to improve, but already now it is the best. We have developed about 1,200,000 lines of "qooxdoo" code and converted a system which soon will "fly"... We are satisfied about it. The support is fast and mostly accurate. The core team is mostly very skilled in its answers. But we would never choose qooxdoo for such a big project without knowing we have our own resources if qooxdoo dies or if the qooxdoo team disappears in some or the other way. Too big investment and too big risk, if we wouldn't have the resources by ourselves.

I hope the above clarifies one of many views from the community.

Stefan
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful, 
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance. 
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Daniel Wagner
Administrator
Here's one thing that could help a lot: If you come across an
interesting blog post or discussion where other frameworks are
mentioned, leave a comment suggesting people check out qooxdoo. Just
don't be too "evangelical" about it, let people discover qooxdoo's
strengths on their own.


Regards,
Daniel

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog schrieb:

> Hi Stefan,
>
> I would not be able to summarize as well as you did.
> This is the 100% exact copy of what I think :-)
>
> Thanks.
>
> Now, why not consider the second stage : what can we do all as a community ?
> Any idea ?
>
> On 10 sept. 2010, at 09:38, Stefan Andersson wrote:
>
>> Hej!
>>
>> I agree on your interest and I can assure that qooxdoo is the best for
>> many settings. Maybe not satisfies all tastes, but I have not found
>> anything more complete out there. I am sure that the core team will be
>> adding functionality as browsers change. You have to be aware of it is
>> a slow process to upgrade all browsers out there and therefore the
>> work with new implementations must have some degree of backward
>> compatibility.
>>
>> Fortunately, qooxdoo is definitively one of the, if not the most,
>> advanced javascript framework in the market. The design is really good
>> and in some parts based on excellent new ideas. Javascript is not an
>> easy language to build a framework on! Lots of tricks to get it
>> going...mostly due to a rain forest of wild browsers living their own
>> lives.
>>
>> Unfortunately, qooxdoo is more or less a garage project from a
>> marketing perspective. Very few know of it in the world. The website
>> is in its functionality average, but its design is already old. Almost
>> no money and too little time is spent on marketing of this fantastic
>> tool. Until that will be done, it will still be in the garage
>> division. Unfortunately development goes fast and the competitors
>> don't wait. Especially not the commercial alternatives. One scenario
>> could be an alliance with one of the big market players. We have not
>> seen this happen so far. If nothing drastic happens, it will still be
>> a small alternative, but maybe still technically the best.
>>
>> Even though this insecurity due to the market and fame, we chose
>> qooxdoo because the code has been fairly well documented, the
>> structure is robust and it is technically the best. It still has a lot
>> of things to improve, but already now it is the best. We have
>> developed about 1,200,000 lines of "qooxdoo" code and converted a
>> system which soon will "fly"... We are satisfied about it. The support
>> is fast and mostly accurate. The core team is mostly very skilled in
>> its answers. But we would never choose qooxdoo for such a big project
>> without knowing we have our own resources if qooxdoo dies or if the
>> qooxdoo team disappears in some or the other way. Too big investment
>> and too big risk, if we wouldn't have the resources by ourselves.
>>
>> I hope the above clarifies one of many views from the community.
>>
>> Stefan
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev_______________________________________________
>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Siarhei Barysiuk
In reply to this post by Leandro Santiago
Hi,

I can say only for qxtransformer cause I and Christian Boulanger  
started the project.

As you mentioned, the project is not very active. But it's compatible  
with the latest version of qooxdoo and works fine (use trunk version).  
The biggest project where qxtransformer was used is Bibliograph (http://sourceforge.net/projects/bibliograph/ 
) by Christian Boulanger.

We have tags docs here: http://qxtransformer.org/docs/
And some other documentation here: http://sites.google.com/a/qxtransformer.org/qxtransformer/Documentation
And here:
http://qooxdoo.org/contrib/project/qxtransformer/setup?s=qxtransformer
http://qooxdoo.org/contrib/project/qxtransformer/components?s=qxtransformer

Docs are not perfect (far from perfect) but unfortunately that what we  
have now. Since it's a pet project sometimes it's not enough time to  
improve things, writing docs, etc. All my current activities are not  
related with qooxdoo (unfortunately) and I don't have enough time to  
working on the project anymore.

If you (or any other developer/contributor) is interested in moving  
qxtransformer forward, please let me know. We will be glad to provide  
you with all necessary information and help.

Thanks,
Siarhei Barysiuk


On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:55 AM, Leandro Santiago wrote:

> Hello to all. (Sorry for my bad English, I'm Brazilian, I hope you
> understand me, and yes, it's a long text :-))
>
> I'm a qooxdoo fan's, even I being a newbie :-)
>
> I'm thinking in how qooxdoo is a great framework, but it isn't very
> know. Many people use other frameworks for RIA,  like Flex (here in
> Brazil it's very famous) or Silverlight and they usually spend a lot
> of money with these tools and other things.
>
> Flex is know for the MXML dialect. Qooxdoo is incredible and there is
> QxTransformer, which as easy as MXML, but it's less know and less
> documented (OMG, I needed to look into qxtransform source code to
> learn about QXML! :-) ). But it's a wonderful product.
>
> Flex and ActionScript have integration with many IDEs, but so far I
> didn't see any IDE with qooxdoo support or even QxTransform support.
>
> The documentation about QxTransformer is out of date (qooxdoo 0.8),
> and more complete tutorials about qooxdoo are missing.
>
> I know, it's a community project, but it has the power to be a very
> professional if there are companies and other associated projects,
> like IDEs and visual tools (for qxtransform).
>
> The next gen web browser are going to use hardware acceleration to
> "boost" web pages and web apps. Flash (used by Flex) already uses
> hardware acceleration, so it's very fast and has cool animations on
> it's interface.  I think qooxdoo could take advantages of threse new
> browsers' tecnologies to improve it's performance. Are there any
> iniciative in this way? There are also other interesting tecnologies
> link video and audio (html5 tag) and even the canvas and svg element
> which could be used to enrich the qooxdoo framework.
>
> I'm not complaining. I like qooxdoo and I think that it's its time.
> Many systems are migrating to web and unfortunately proprietary and
> closed source tecnologies are today the firsts in list of
> small/medium/big port companies.
>
> (IMHO) In this case, is essential to create an ecossystem around
> qooxdoo. Composed by IDEs, documentation, forums, IRC channels (yes, I
> miss a IRC channel :-( ), translation teams, etc.
>
> Thanks you qooxdoo developers.
>
> Best regards.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Tom Schindl
In reply to this post by Daniel Wagner
Hi,

I've often tried that but when I point people to the show case the
biggest problem is that if you compare the L&F with the one from the
competitors (ext, smartclient, ...) qooxdoo can't compete - we can argue
a long way that the code quality and the design of qooxdoo is better but
you'll won't get people to buy into qooxdoo with giving them a default
state of the art visual design.

What qooxdoo needs are 2 new designs:
* a very flashy one (the one from Norbert is going into the right
  direction)
* one a bit more conservative one than the above to catch up with
  competitors

Tom

Am 10.09.10 10:46, schrieb Daniel Wagner:

> Here's one thing that could help a lot: If you come across an
> interesting blog post or discussion where other frameworks are
> mentioned, leave a comment suggesting people check out qooxdoo. Just
> don't be too "evangelical" about it, let people discover qooxdoo's
> strengths on their own.
>
>
> Regards,
> Daniel
>
> Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog schrieb:
>> Hi Stefan,
>>
>> I would not be able to summarize as well as you did.
>> This is the 100% exact copy of what I think :-)
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Now, why not consider the second stage : what can we do all as a community ?
>> Any idea ?
>>
>> On 10 sept. 2010, at 09:38, Stefan Andersson wrote:
>>
>>> Hej!
>>>
>>> I agree on your interest and I can assure that qooxdoo is the best for
>>> many settings. Maybe not satisfies all tastes, but I have not found
>>> anything more complete out there. I am sure that the core team will be
>>> adding functionality as browsers change. You have to be aware of it is
>>> a slow process to upgrade all browsers out there and therefore the
>>> work with new implementations must have some degree of backward
>>> compatibility.
>>>
>>> Fortunately, qooxdoo is definitively one of the, if not the most,
>>> advanced javascript framework in the market. The design is really good
>>> and in some parts based on excellent new ideas. Javascript is not an
>>> easy language to build a framework on! Lots of tricks to get it
>>> going...mostly due to a rain forest of wild browsers living their own
>>> lives.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, qooxdoo is more or less a garage project from a
>>> marketing perspective. Very few know of it in the world. The website
>>> is in its functionality average, but its design is already old. Almost
>>> no money and too little time is spent on marketing of this fantastic
>>> tool. Until that will be done, it will still be in the garage
>>> division. Unfortunately development goes fast and the competitors
>>> don't wait. Especially not the commercial alternatives. One scenario
>>> could be an alliance with one of the big market players. We have not
>>> seen this happen so far. If nothing drastic happens, it will still be
>>> a small alternative, but maybe still technically the best.
>>>
>>> Even though this insecurity due to the market and fame, we chose
>>> qooxdoo because the code has been fairly well documented, the
>>> structure is robust and it is technically the best. It still has a lot
>>> of things to improve, but already now it is the best. We have
>>> developed about 1,200,000 lines of "qooxdoo" code and converted a
>>> system which soon will "fly"... We are satisfied about it. The support
>>> is fast and mostly accurate. The core team is mostly very skilled in
>>> its answers. But we would never choose qooxdoo for such a big project
>>> without knowing we have our own resources if qooxdoo dies or if the
>>> qooxdoo team disappears in some or the other way. Too big investment
>>> and too big risk, if we wouldn't have the resources by ourselves.
>>>
>>> I hope the above clarifies one of many views from the community.
>>>
>>> Stefan
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev_______________________________________________
>>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel


--
B e s t S o l u t i o n . a t                        EDV Systemhaus GmbH
------------------------------------------------------------------------
tom schindl                                        geschaeftsfuehrer/CEO
------------------------------------------------------------------------
eduard-bodem-gasse 5/1    A-6020 innsbruck      phone    ++43 512 935834

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Thomas Herchenroeder
In reply to this post by Stefan A
> Unfortunately, qooxdoo is more or less a garage project from a marketing
> perspective. Very few know of it in the world. The website is in its
> functionality average, but its design is already old. Almost no money
> and too little time is spent on marketing of this fantastic tool. Until
> that will be done, it will still be in the garage division.

I'm not sure it is all about money here. I would be surprised if other
open-source projects like dojo or jquery move major funds for marketing.
Maybe jquery can benefit from a Mozilla web designer for its web site,
but that might be about all ;-).

The thing I find more interesting is the fact that a channel like
Ajaxian.org simply drops mails from us about significant releases and
innovations (e.g. the forked out qx-oo.js recently), while any minuscule
achievement of other JS projects is hailed and reported about in depth.
I cannot help but feel a bit "underdoged" here.

I think in terms of overall recognition it is more a question of
word-of-mouth advertising, and we don't seem to have achieved a critical
mass in this respect. Blog posts, tweets and comments to popular posts
could do a lot here.

T.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Thomas Herchenroeder
In reply to this post by Tom Schindl


On 09/10/2010 11:01 AM, Tom Schindl wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've often tried that but when I point people to the show case the
> biggest problem is that if you compare the L&F with the one from the
> competitors (ext, smartclient, ...) qooxdoo can't compete - we can argue
> a long way that the code quality and the design of qooxdoo is better but
> you'll won't get people to buy into qooxdoo with giving them a default

... *without* ...?!

> state of the art visual design.
>
> What qooxdoo needs are 2 new designs:
> * a very flashy one (the one from Norbert is going into the right
>   direction)
> * one a bit more conservative one than the above to catch up with
>   competitors
>
> Tom
>
> Am 10.09.10 10:46, schrieb Daniel Wagner:
>> Here's one thing that could help a lot: If you come across an
>> interesting blog post or discussion where other frameworks are
>> mentioned, leave a comment suggesting people check out qooxdoo. Just
>> don't be too "evangelical" about it, let people discover qooxdoo's
>> strengths on their own.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Daniel
>>
>> Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog schrieb:
>>> Hi Stefan,
>>>
>>> I would not be able to summarize as well as you did.
>>> This is the 100% exact copy of what I think :-)
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Now, why not consider the second stage : what can we do all as a community ?
>>> Any idea ?
>>>
>>> On 10 sept. 2010, at 09:38, Stefan Andersson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hej!
>>>>
>>>> I agree on your interest and I can assure that qooxdoo is the best for
>>>> many settings. Maybe not satisfies all tastes, but I have not found
>>>> anything more complete out there. I am sure that the core team will be
>>>> adding functionality as browsers change. You have to be aware of it is
>>>> a slow process to upgrade all browsers out there and therefore the
>>>> work with new implementations must have some degree of backward
>>>> compatibility.
>>>>
>>>> Fortunately, qooxdoo is definitively one of the, if not the most,
>>>> advanced javascript framework in the market. The design is really good
>>>> and in some parts based on excellent new ideas. Javascript is not an
>>>> easy language to build a framework on! Lots of tricks to get it
>>>> going...mostly due to a rain forest of wild browsers living their own
>>>> lives.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, qooxdoo is more or less a garage project from a
>>>> marketing perspective. Very few know of it in the world. The website
>>>> is in its functionality average, but its design is already old. Almost
>>>> no money and too little time is spent on marketing of this fantastic
>>>> tool. Until that will be done, it will still be in the garage
>>>> division. Unfortunately development goes fast and the competitors
>>>> don't wait. Especially not the commercial alternatives. One scenario
>>>> could be an alliance with one of the big market players. We have not
>>>> seen this happen so far. If nothing drastic happens, it will still be
>>>> a small alternative, but maybe still technically the best.
>>>>
>>>> Even though this insecurity due to the market and fame, we chose
>>>> qooxdoo because the code has been fairly well documented, the
>>>> structure is robust and it is technically the best. It still has a lot
>>>> of things to improve, but already now it is the best. We have
>>>> developed about 1,200,000 lines of "qooxdoo" code and converted a
>>>> system which soon will "fly"... We are satisfied about it. The support
>>>> is fast and mostly accurate. The core team is mostly very skilled in
>>>> its answers. But we would never choose qooxdoo for such a big project
>>>> without knowing we have our own resources if qooxdoo dies or if the
>>>> qooxdoo team disappears in some or the other way. Too big investment
>>>> and too big risk, if we wouldn't have the resources by ourselves.
>>>>
>>>> I hope the above clarifies one of many views from the community.
>>>>
>>>> Stefan
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>>>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>>>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>>>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev_______________________________________________
>>>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
>> _______________________________________________
>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
In reply to this post by Daniel Wagner
Sure we can all post, blog, comment in favor of qooxdoo.
I do that as much as I can already.

There is also some other idea that would involve qooxdoo :
* make it simpler to use for first time user (Python toolchain optional rather than mandatory, all in one big js file to download, ...)
* better default theme

That had been discussed many times.

On 10 sept. 2010, at 10:46, Daniel Wagner wrote:

> Here's one thing that could help a lot: If you come across an
> interesting blog post or discussion where other frameworks are
> mentioned, leave a comment suggesting people check out qooxdoo. Just
> don't be too "evangelical" about it, let people discover qooxdoo's
> strengths on their own.
>
>
> Regards,
> Daniel
>
> Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog schrieb:
>> Hi Stefan,
>>
>> I would not be able to summarize as well as you did.
>> This is the 100% exact copy of what I think :-)
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Now, why not consider the second stage : what can we do all as a community ?
>> Any idea ?
>>
>> On 10 sept. 2010, at 09:38, Stefan Andersson wrote:
>>
>>> Hej!
>>>
>>> I agree on your interest and I can assure that qooxdoo is the best for
>>> many settings. Maybe not satisfies all tastes, but I have not found
>>> anything more complete out there. I am sure that the core team will be
>>> adding functionality as browsers change. You have to be aware of it is
>>> a slow process to upgrade all browsers out there and therefore the
>>> work with new implementations must have some degree of backward
>>> compatibility.
>>>
>>> Fortunately, qooxdoo is definitively one of the, if not the most,
>>> advanced javascript framework in the market. The design is really good
>>> and in some parts based on excellent new ideas. Javascript is not an
>>> easy language to build a framework on! Lots of tricks to get it
>>> going...mostly due to a rain forest of wild browsers living their own
>>> lives.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, qooxdoo is more or less a garage project from a
>>> marketing perspective. Very few know of it in the world. The website
>>> is in its functionality average, but its design is already old. Almost
>>> no money and too little time is spent on marketing of this fantastic
>>> tool. Until that will be done, it will still be in the garage
>>> division. Unfortunately development goes fast and the competitors
>>> don't wait. Especially not the commercial alternatives. One scenario
>>> could be an alliance with one of the big market players. We have not
>>> seen this happen so far. If nothing drastic happens, it will still be
>>> a small alternative, but maybe still technically the best.
>>>
>>> Even though this insecurity due to the market and fame, we chose
>>> qooxdoo because the code has been fairly well documented, the
>>> structure is robust and it is technically the best. It still has a lot
>>> of things to improve, but already now it is the best. We have
>>> developed about 1,200,000 lines of "qooxdoo" code and converted a
>>> system which soon will "fly"... We are satisfied about it. The support
>>> is fast and mostly accurate. The core team is mostly very skilled in
>>> its answers. But we would never choose qooxdoo for such a big project
>>> without knowing we have our own resources if qooxdoo dies or if the
>>> qooxdoo team disappears in some or the other way. Too big investment
>>> and too big risk, if we wouldn't have the resources by ourselves.
>>>
>>> I hope the above clarifies one of many views from the community.
>>>
>>> Stefan
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev_______________________________________________
>>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Tom Schindl
In reply to this post by Thomas Herchenroeder
thron7 schrieb:

>
> On 09/10/2010 11:01 AM, Tom Schindl wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've often tried that but when I point people to the show case the
>> biggest problem is that if you compare the L&F with the one from the
>> competitors (ext, smartclient, ...) qooxdoo can't compete - we can argue
>> a long way that the code quality and the design of qooxdoo is better but
>> you'll won't get people to buy into qooxdoo with giving them a default
>
> ... *without* ...?!

Yep.

Tom

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Thomas Herchenroeder
In reply to this post by Tom Schindl
Wishlist for qooxdoo

(by whomsoever, in no particular order, with no particular preference,
and with no implied commit status):

* add 2 new standard themes
* re-design the web site
* finalize move of the web site to new hardware (we're still using the
old one as well)
* improve the manual
* re-write the manual
* write a book about qooxdoo
* write more tutorials
* hold more tutorials  (we came just back from Bucharest doing that)
* replace the mailing list with something better
* replace bugzilla with something better
* replace the wiki with something better
* write more blog posts
* answer more blog posts
* write more tweets
* write more answers on the mailing list
* write less(!) answers on the mailing list
* provide IDE support for qooxdoo
* provide an interface builder for qooxdoo
* provide a GUI for the generator
* re-write the generator
* make the generator faster
* make the generator use multi-core
* improve the framework API
* keep the framework API stable
* write more unit tests
* publish test results
* test test coverage (no typo!)
* move the test infrastructure to a dedicated host
* fix bugs for the next release
* implement features for the next release
* advertise qooxdoo to inhouse projects
* teach qooxdoo to inhouse projects
* support inhouse projects
* add virtual widgets
* add lightweight widgets
* write the next killer demo
* implement the next killer JS feature
* ...

These are only the first things that come to my mind. Shall I continue?!

T.

On 09/10/2010 11:01 AM, Tom Schindl wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I've often tried that but when I point people to the show case the
> biggest problem is that if you compare the L&F with the one from the
> competitors (ext, smartclient, ...) qooxdoo can't compete - we can argue
> a long way that the code quality and the design of qooxdoo is better but
> you'll won't get people to buy into qooxdoo with giving them a default
> state of the art visual design.
>
> What qooxdoo needs are 2 new designs:
> * a very flashy one (the one from Norbert is going into the right
>   direction)
> * one a bit more conservative one than the above to catch up with
>   competitors
>
> Tom
>
> Am 10.09.10 10:46, schrieb Daniel Wagner:
>> Here's one thing that could help a lot: If you come across an
>> interesting blog post or discussion where other frameworks are
>> mentioned, leave a comment suggesting people check out qooxdoo. Just
>> don't be too "evangelical" about it, let people discover qooxdoo's
>> strengths on their own.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Daniel
>>
>> Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog schrieb:
>>> Hi Stefan,
>>>
>>> I would not be able to summarize as well as you did.
>>> This is the 100% exact copy of what I think :-)
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Now, why not consider the second stage : what can we do all as a community ?
>>> Any idea ?
>>>
>>> On 10 sept. 2010, at 09:38, Stefan Andersson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hej!
>>>>
>>>> I agree on your interest and I can assure that qooxdoo is the best for
>>>> many settings. Maybe not satisfies all tastes, but I have not found
>>>> anything more complete out there. I am sure that the core team will be
>>>> adding functionality as browsers change. You have to be aware of it is
>>>> a slow process to upgrade all browsers out there and therefore the
>>>> work with new implementations must have some degree of backward
>>>> compatibility.
>>>>
>>>> Fortunately, qooxdoo is definitively one of the, if not the most,
>>>> advanced javascript framework in the market. The design is really good
>>>> and in some parts based on excellent new ideas. Javascript is not an
>>>> easy language to build a framework on! Lots of tricks to get it
>>>> going...mostly due to a rain forest of wild browsers living their own
>>>> lives.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, qooxdoo is more or less a garage project from a
>>>> marketing perspective. Very few know of it in the world. The website
>>>> is in its functionality average, but its design is already old. Almost
>>>> no money and too little time is spent on marketing of this fantastic
>>>> tool. Until that will be done, it will still be in the garage
>>>> division. Unfortunately development goes fast and the competitors
>>>> don't wait. Especially not the commercial alternatives. One scenario
>>>> could be an alliance with one of the big market players. We have not
>>>> seen this happen so far. If nothing drastic happens, it will still be
>>>> a small alternative, but maybe still technically the best.
>>>>
>>>> Even though this insecurity due to the market and fame, we chose
>>>> qooxdoo because the code has been fairly well documented, the
>>>> structure is robust and it is technically the best. It still has a lot
>>>> of things to improve, but already now it is the best. We have
>>>> developed about 1,200,000 lines of "qooxdoo" code and converted a
>>>> system which soon will "fly"... We are satisfied about it. The support
>>>> is fast and mostly accurate. The core team is mostly very skilled in
>>>> its answers. But we would never choose qooxdoo for such a big project
>>>> without knowing we have our own resources if qooxdoo dies or if the
>>>> qooxdoo team disappears in some or the other way. Too big investment
>>>> and too big risk, if we wouldn't have the resources by ourselves.
>>>>
>>>> I hope the above clarifies one of many views from the community.
>>>>
>>>> Stefan
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>>>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>>>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>>>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev_______________________________________________
>>>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
>> _______________________________________________
>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

MartinWittemann
Administrator
Hey,
It is really interesting to catch up all the whole thread (as Thomas said, we were in Bucharest for a week). As Tobi said, there is from time to time some similar post here on the list with a lot of good ideas. I love to read those posts because it gives me an idea how you, as the community, like the project. But unfortunately, most of the ideas area already known in the core team. Just take a look at the list Thomas put up. There is a lot to do and be sure we will check of some of the stuff. But its all about setting priorities, sure everybody knows that from its own projects. ;) If you are interested in the priorities, you can always take a look at out bugzilla to follow what we are doing and planed to do.
Best,
Martin


Am 10.09.2010 um 11:58 schrieb thron7:

> Wishlist for qooxdoo
>
> (by whomsoever, in no particular order, with no particular preference,
> and with no implied commit status):
>
> * add 2 new standard themes
> * re-design the web site
> * finalize move of the web site to new hardware (we're still using the
> old one as well)
> * improve the manual
> * re-write the manual
> * write a book about qooxdoo
> * write more tutorials
> * hold more tutorials  (we came just back from Bucharest doing that)
> * replace the mailing list with something better
> * replace bugzilla with something better
> * replace the wiki with something better
> * write more blog posts
> * answer more blog posts
> * write more tweets
> * write more answers on the mailing list
> * write less(!) answers on the mailing list
> * provide IDE support for qooxdoo
> * provide an interface builder for qooxdoo
> * provide a GUI for the generator
> * re-write the generator
> * make the generator faster
> * make the generator use multi-core
> * improve the framework API
> * keep the framework API stable
> * write more unit tests
> * publish test results
> * test test coverage (no typo!)
> * move the test infrastructure to a dedicated host
> * fix bugs for the next release
> * implement features for the next release
> * advertise qooxdoo to inhouse projects
> * teach qooxdoo to inhouse projects
> * support inhouse projects
> * add virtual widgets
> * add lightweight widgets
> * write the next killer demo
> * implement the next killer JS feature
> * ...
>
> These are only the first things that come to my mind. Shall I continue?!
>
> T.
>
> On 09/10/2010 11:01 AM, Tom Schindl wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've often tried that but when I point people to the show case the
>> biggest problem is that if you compare the L&F with the one from the
>> competitors (ext, smartclient, ...) qooxdoo can't compete - we can argue
>> a long way that the code quality and the design of qooxdoo is better but
>> you'll won't get people to buy into qooxdoo with giving them a default
>> state of the art visual design.
>>
>> What qooxdoo needs are 2 new designs:
>> * a very flashy one (the one from Norbert is going into the right
>>  direction)
>> * one a bit more conservative one than the above to catch up with
>>  competitors
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> Am 10.09.10 10:46, schrieb Daniel Wagner:
>>> Here's one thing that could help a lot: If you come across an
>>> interesting blog post or discussion where other frameworks are
>>> mentioned, leave a comment suggesting people check out qooxdoo. Just
>>> don't be too "evangelical" about it, let people discover qooxdoo's
>>> strengths on their own.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Daniel
>>>
>>> Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog schrieb:
>>>> Hi Stefan,
>>>>
>>>> I would not be able to summarize as well as you did.
>>>> This is the 100% exact copy of what I think :-)
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Now, why not consider the second stage : what can we do all as a community ?
>>>> Any idea ?
>>>>
>>>> On 10 sept. 2010, at 09:38, Stefan Andersson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hej!
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree on your interest and I can assure that qooxdoo is the best for
>>>>> many settings. Maybe not satisfies all tastes, but I have not found
>>>>> anything more complete out there. I am sure that the core team will be
>>>>> adding functionality as browsers change. You have to be aware of it is
>>>>> a slow process to upgrade all browsers out there and therefore the
>>>>> work with new implementations must have some degree of backward
>>>>> compatibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fortunately, qooxdoo is definitively one of the, if not the most,
>>>>> advanced javascript framework in the market. The design is really good
>>>>> and in some parts based on excellent new ideas. Javascript is not an
>>>>> easy language to build a framework on! Lots of tricks to get it
>>>>> going...mostly due to a rain forest of wild browsers living their own
>>>>> lives.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, qooxdoo is more or less a garage project from a
>>>>> marketing perspective. Very few know of it in the world. The website
>>>>> is in its functionality average, but its design is already old. Almost
>>>>> no money and too little time is spent on marketing of this fantastic
>>>>> tool. Until that will be done, it will still be in the garage
>>>>> division. Unfortunately development goes fast and the competitors
>>>>> don't wait. Especially not the commercial alternatives. One scenario
>>>>> could be an alliance with one of the big market players. We have not
>>>>> seen this happen so far. If nothing drastic happens, it will still be
>>>>> a small alternative, but maybe still technically the best.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even though this insecurity due to the market and fame, we chose
>>>>> qooxdoo because the code has been fairly well documented, the
>>>>> structure is robust and it is technically the best. It still has a lot
>>>>> of things to improve, but already now it is the best. We have
>>>>> developed about 1,200,000 lines of "qooxdoo" code and converted a
>>>>> system which soon will "fly"... We are satisfied about it. The support
>>>>> is fast and mostly accurate. The core team is mostly very skilled in
>>>>> its answers. But we would never choose qooxdoo for such a big project
>>>>> without knowing we have our own resources if qooxdoo dies or if the
>>>>> qooxdoo team disappears in some or the other way. Too big investment
>>>>> and too big risk, if we wouldn't have the resources by ourselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope the above clarifies one of many views from the community.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stefan
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>>>>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>>>>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>>>>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev_______________________________________________
>>>>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>>>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>>>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>>>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Stefan A
In reply to this post by Leandro Santiago
My mail list handler might be rudimentary, but it kicks me back after changing so many times....Sorry for that!

There are ideas.
There is a list, a long list, which requires more resources.....
There is will.
There is wish.

1. So why not ask some people outside the core to contribute and actively assign them for some of the work, but still letting the core team be supervising it?

2. We are a bunch of people here. Why not let people commit to spreading the message of qooxdoo? For example, it could be nice to ask someone specific person to...

...become the unofficial representative/ambassador in a country
...find out the best fora in that country
...spread the info about qooxdoo through them

The core team could write an instruction on how to do it, how to write, links, how to attract interest etc.

Essential here is to have a very simple start kit and all links go to the start kit, which takes seconds to get up and running.


Is this possible to make happen?

Stefan
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Stefan A
In reply to this post by Leandro Santiago
Don't get me wrong, but if the core team knows everything, if you really mean everything, then, why using a community?

I think it was not really what you meant, because if you would think like that you make the biggest mistake and don't see what you think you do.

Despite of that, it is not most interesting what you know! Instead the interest lies in what you do NOT know! There the community can contribute a lot, because I think you admit now that you still don't know it ALL. Binary thinking does not work "mit Projekt Leitung", but is excellent with solving problems.

:-)

It lies a contradiction in what you said, so not to frighten new readers on this thread away, I only wanted to clarify.

Stefan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

John Spackman-3
In reply to this post by Thomas Herchenroeder
Sounds great Thomas, and it would be perfect to have that list completed
by, say, next Friday? ;)


Seriously though, it's not surprising that different Qx users have
different priorities and out of these the core Qx team have a task to
filter out the "real" set (not ignoring 1&1's commercial needs either),
but most people (myself included) do not have the time or money to back up
our requests with actual contributions.

Qooxdoo's core todo list is pretty massive and we have to recognise that
many (most?) of our wish list won't get done soon even though there are
several people on the list with overlapping requirements.

So how about setting up a kind of marketplace for jobs to be done where
people group together to pay a "prize" for the best or quickest entry?
For example, new themes: if 5 people/companies each donated £100 for a new
theme, that's £500 (around US$750) that goes to the person voted as giving
the best theme; the contrib would have to be OS licensed and gifted to Qx
to qualify.

Obviously this depends on enough people getting together to define
_and_agree_ the project, as well as enough entrants - but I wouldn't see a
problem in paying someone who was also paid by his employer to develop the
solution (so long as the contrib is OS licensed).

John

On 10/09/2010 10:58, "thron7" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Wishlist for qooxdoo
>
>(by whomsoever, in no particular order, with no particular preference,
>and with no implied commit status):
>
>* add 2 new standard themes
>* re-design the web site
>* finalize move of the web site to new hardware (we're still using the
>old one as well)
>* improve the manual
>* re-write the manual
>* write a book about qooxdoo
>* write more tutorials
>* hold more tutorials  (we came just back from Bucharest doing that)
>* replace the mailing list with something better
>* replace bugzilla with something better
>* replace the wiki with something better
>* write more blog posts
>* answer more blog posts
>* write more tweets
>* write more answers on the mailing list
>* write less(!) answers on the mailing list
>* provide IDE support for qooxdoo
>* provide an interface builder for qooxdoo
>* provide a GUI for the generator
>* re-write the generator
>* make the generator faster
>* make the generator use multi-core
>* improve the framework API
>* keep the framework API stable
>* write more unit tests
>* publish test results
>* test test coverage (no typo!)
>* move the test infrastructure to a dedicated host
>* fix bugs for the next release
>* implement features for the next release
>* advertise qooxdoo to inhouse projects
>* teach qooxdoo to inhouse projects
>* support inhouse projects
>* add virtual widgets
>* add lightweight widgets
>* write the next killer demo
>* implement the next killer JS feature
>* ...
>
>These are only the first things that come to my mind. Shall I continue?!
>
>T.
>
>On 09/10/2010 11:01 AM, Tom Schindl wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've often tried that but when I point people to the show case the
>> biggest problem is that if you compare the L&F with the one from the
>> competitors (ext, smartclient, ...) qooxdoo can't compete - we can argue
>> a long way that the code quality and the design of qooxdoo is better but
>> you'll won't get people to buy into qooxdoo with giving them a default
>> state of the art visual design.
>>
>> What qooxdoo needs are 2 new designs:
>> * a very flashy one (the one from Norbert is going into the right
>>   direction)
>> * one a bit more conservative one than the above to catch up with
>>   competitors
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> Am 10.09.10 10:46, schrieb Daniel Wagner:
>>> Here's one thing that could help a lot: If you come across an
>>> interesting blog post or discussion where other frameworks are
>>> mentioned, leave a comment suggesting people check out qooxdoo. Just
>>> don't be too "evangelical" about it, let people discover qooxdoo's
>>> strengths on their own.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Daniel
>>>
>>> Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog schrieb:
>>>> Hi Stefan,
>>>>
>>>> I would not be able to summarize as well as you did.
>>>> This is the 100% exact copy of what I think :-)
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Now, why not consider the second stage : what can we do all as a
>>>>community ?
>>>> Any idea ?
>>>>
>>>> On 10 sept. 2010, at 09:38, Stefan Andersson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hej!
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree on your interest and I can assure that qooxdoo is the best
>>>>>for
>>>>> many settings. Maybe not satisfies all tastes, but I have not found
>>>>> anything more complete out there. I am sure that the core team will
>>>>>be
>>>>> adding functionality as browsers change. You have to be aware of it
>>>>>is
>>>>> a slow process to upgrade all browsers out there and therefore the
>>>>> work with new implementations must have some degree of backward
>>>>> compatibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fortunately, qooxdoo is definitively one of the, if not the most,
>>>>> advanced javascript framework in the market. The design is really
>>>>>good
>>>>> and in some parts based on excellent new ideas. Javascript is not an
>>>>> easy language to build a framework on! Lots of tricks to get it
>>>>> going...mostly due to a rain forest of wild browsers living their
>>>>>own
>>>>> lives.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, qooxdoo is more or less a garage project from a
>>>>> marketing perspective. Very few know of it in the world. The website
>>>>> is in its functionality average, but its design is already old.
>>>>>Almost
>>>>> no money and too little time is spent on marketing of this fantastic
>>>>> tool. Until that will be done, it will still be in the garage
>>>>> division. Unfortunately development goes fast and the competitors
>>>>> don't wait. Especially not the commercial alternatives. One scenario
>>>>> could be an alliance with one of the big market players. We have not
>>>>> seen this happen so far. If nothing drastic happens, it will still
>>>>>be
>>>>> a small alternative, but maybe still technically the best.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even though this insecurity due to the market and fame, we chose
>>>>> qooxdoo because the code has been fairly well documented, the
>>>>> structure is robust and it is technically the best. It still has a
>>>>>lot
>>>>> of things to improve, but already now it is the best. We have
>>>>> developed about 1,200,000 lines of "qooxdoo" code and converted a
>>>>> system which soon will "fly"... We are satisfied about it. The
>>>>>support
>>>>> is fast and mostly accurate. The core team is mostly very skilled in
>>>>> its answers. But we would never choose qooxdoo for such a big
>>>>>project
>>>>> without knowing we have our own resources if qooxdoo dies or if the
>>>>> qooxdoo team disappears in some or the other way. Too big investment
>>>>> and too big risk, if we wouldn't have the resources by ourselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope the above clarifies one of many views from the community.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stefan
>>>>>
>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>--------
>>>>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>>>>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>>>>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>>>>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev____________________________________
>>>>>___________
>>>>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>-
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>-------
>>>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>>>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>>>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>>>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>-
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>>
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>------
>>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>
>>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>----
>Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
>_______________________________________________
>qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>[hidden email]
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Thomas Herchenroeder
In reply to this post by Stefan A


> 1. So why not ask some people outside the core to contribute and
> actively assign them for some of the work, but still letting the core
> team be supervising it?
>
> 2. We are a bunch of people here. Why not let people commit to spreading
> the message of qooxdoo? For example, it could be nice to ask someone
> specific person to...
>
> ...become the unofficial representative/ambassador in a country
> ...find out the best fora in that country
> ...spread the info about qooxdoo through them
>
> The core team could write an instruction on how to do it, how to write,
> links, how to attract interest etc.
>
> Essential here is to have a very simple start kit and all links go to
> the start kit, which takes seconds to get up and running.
>
>
> Is this possible to make happen?

First of all, it's another point on the list (or three). Community
building and management is nothing short of a full-time job.

T.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
In reply to this post by John Spackman-3

Trying to improve qooxdoo popularity has nothing to do with wish list.
I would love to simplify new comers life only because I love qooxdoo and I feel that qooxdoo popularity is too low.
That would not be something I need but something I think could improve qooxdoo popularity.
Already listed and discussed : optional python tool chain and all in one js file to download.
This ideas was not shared so it was probably not a good idea.

The question was about an ecosystem, not wish list from different user.
Also, it may not be obvious for everybody why an ecosystem is a good thing to have and why we don't have one for qooxdoo.
If I remember well, even increasing qooxdoo popularity was not something obvious for everybody.

>From last discussion, I noticed that the feeling for qooxdoo popularity and ecosystem state is quite different depending on country and in Germany, probably because 1&1 is well known, the situation is not bad at all.
Here in France, I was simply not able to get paid consultancy on qooxdoo, so the ecosystem is just undefined, not even null :-)

Of course, that doesn't change the reality of what we have all : the best web framework on a technical point of view, thanks to qooxdoo core team.

On 10 sept. 2010, at 13:13, John Spackman wrote:

> Sounds great Thomas, and it would be perfect to have that list completed
> by, say, next Friday? ;)
>
>
> Seriously though, it's not surprising that different Qx users have
> different priorities and out of these the core Qx team have a task to
> filter out the "real" set (not ignoring 1&1's commercial needs either),
> but most people (myself included) do not have the time or money to back up
> our requests with actual contributions.
>
> Qooxdoo's core todo list is pretty massive and we have to recognise that
> many (most?) of our wish list won't get done soon even though there are
> several people on the list with overlapping requirements.
>
> So how about setting up a kind of marketplace for jobs to be done where
> people group together to pay a "prize" for the best or quickest entry?
> For example, new themes: if 5 people/companies each donated £100 for a new
> theme, that's £500 (around US$750) that goes to the person voted as giving
> the best theme; the contrib would have to be OS licensed and gifted to Qx
> to qualify.
>
> Obviously this depends on enough people getting together to define
> _and_agree_ the project, as well as enough entrants - but I wouldn't see a
> problem in paying someone who was also paid by his employer to develop the
> solution (so long as the contrib is OS licensed).
>
> John
>
> On 10/09/2010 10:58, "thron7" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Wishlist for qooxdoo
>>
>> (by whomsoever, in no particular order, with no particular preference,
>> and with no implied commit status):
>>
>> * add 2 new standard themes
>> * re-design the web site
>> * finalize move of the web site to new hardware (we're still using the
>> old one as well)
>> * improve the manual
>> * re-write the manual
>> * write a book about qooxdoo
>> * write more tutorials
>> * hold more tutorials  (we came just back from Bucharest doing that)
>> * replace the mailing list with something better
>> * replace bugzilla with something better
>> * replace the wiki with something better
>> * write more blog posts
>> * answer more blog posts
>> * write more tweets
>> * write more answers on the mailing list
>> * write less(!) answers on the mailing list
>> * provide IDE support for qooxdoo
>> * provide an interface builder for qooxdoo
>> * provide a GUI for the generator
>> * re-write the generator
>> * make the generator faster
>> * make the generator use multi-core
>> * improve the framework API
>> * keep the framework API stable
>> * write more unit tests
>> * publish test results
>> * test test coverage (no typo!)
>> * move the test infrastructure to a dedicated host
>> * fix bugs for the next release
>> * implement features for the next release
>> * advertise qooxdoo to inhouse projects
>> * teach qooxdoo to inhouse projects
>> * support inhouse projects
>> * add virtual widgets
>> * add lightweight widgets
>> * write the next killer demo
>> * implement the next killer JS feature
>> * ...
>>
>> These are only the first things that come to my mind. Shall I continue?!
>>
>> T.
>>
>> On 09/10/2010 11:01 AM, Tom Schindl wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I've often tried that but when I point people to the show case the
>>> biggest problem is that if you compare the L&F with the one from the
>>> competitors (ext, smartclient, ...) qooxdoo can't compete - we can argue
>>> a long way that the code quality and the design of qooxdoo is better but
>>> you'll won't get people to buy into qooxdoo with giving them a default
>>> state of the art visual design.
>>>
>>> What qooxdoo needs are 2 new designs:
>>> * a very flashy one (the one from Norbert is going into the right
>>>  direction)
>>> * one a bit more conservative one than the above to catch up with
>>>  competitors
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> Am 10.09.10 10:46, schrieb Daniel Wagner:
>>>> Here's one thing that could help a lot: If you come across an
>>>> interesting blog post or discussion where other frameworks are
>>>> mentioned, leave a comment suggesting people check out qooxdoo. Just
>>>> don't be too "evangelical" about it, let people discover qooxdoo's
>>>> strengths on their own.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Daniel
>>>>
>>>> Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog schrieb:
>>>>> Hi Stefan,
>>>>>
>>>>> I would not be able to summarize as well as you did.
>>>>> This is the 100% exact copy of what I think :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, why not consider the second stage : what can we do all as a
>>>>> community ?
>>>>> Any idea ?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 sept. 2010, at 09:38, Stefan Andersson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hej!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree on your interest and I can assure that qooxdoo is the best
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> many settings. Maybe not satisfies all tastes, but I have not found
>>>>>> anything more complete out there. I am sure that the core team will
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> adding functionality as browsers change. You have to be aware of it
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> a slow process to upgrade all browsers out there and therefore the
>>>>>> work with new implementations must have some degree of backward
>>>>>> compatibility.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fortunately, qooxdoo is definitively one of the, if not the most,
>>>>>> advanced javascript framework in the market. The design is really
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> and in some parts based on excellent new ideas. Javascript is not an
>>>>>> easy language to build a framework on! Lots of tricks to get it
>>>>>> going...mostly due to a rain forest of wild browsers living their
>>>>>> own
>>>>>> lives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unfortunately, qooxdoo is more or less a garage project from a
>>>>>> marketing perspective. Very few know of it in the world. The website
>>>>>> is in its functionality average, but its design is already old.
>>>>>> Almost
>>>>>> no money and too little time is spent on marketing of this fantastic
>>>>>> tool. Until that will be done, it will still be in the garage
>>>>>> division. Unfortunately development goes fast and the competitors
>>>>>> don't wait. Especially not the commercial alternatives. One scenario
>>>>>> could be an alliance with one of the big market players. We have not
>>>>>> seen this happen so far. If nothing drastic happens, it will still
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> a small alternative, but maybe still technically the best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even though this insecurity due to the market and fame, we chose
>>>>>> qooxdoo because the code has been fairly well documented, the
>>>>>> structure is robust and it is technically the best. It still has a
>>>>>> lot
>>>>>> of things to improve, but already now it is the best. We have
>>>>>> developed about 1,200,000 lines of "qooxdoo" code and converted a
>>>>>> system which soon will "fly"... We are satisfied about it. The
>>>>>> support
>>>>>> is fast and mostly accurate. The core team is mostly very skilled in
>>>>>> its answers. But we would never choose qooxdoo for such a big
>>>>>> project
>>>>>> without knowing we have our own resources if qooxdoo dies or if the
>>>>>> qooxdoo team disappears in some or the other way. Too big investment
>>>>>> and too big risk, if we wouldn't have the resources by ourselves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope the above clarifies one of many views from the community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stefan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> --------
>>>>>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>>>>>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>>>>>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>>>>>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev____________________________________
>>>>>> ___________
>>>>>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> -------
>>>>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>>>>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>>>>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>>>>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> -
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ------
>>>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>>>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>>>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>>>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
>> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
>> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
>> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
>> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
>> _______________________________________________
>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Automate Storage Tiering Simply
> Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
> automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
> you can reduce costs and improve performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: (off topic?) Qooxdoo's ecossystem question

Thomas Herchenroeder
In reply to this post by Stefan A


On 09/10/2010 12:52 PM, Stefan Andersson wrote:

> Don't get me wrong, but if the core team knows everything, if you really
> mean everything, then, why using a community?
>
> I think it was not really what you meant, because if you would think
> like that you make the biggest mistake and don't see what you think you do.
>
> Despite of that, it is not most interesting what you know! Instead the
> interest lies in what you do NOT know! There the community can
> contribute a lot, because I think you admit now that you still don't
> know it ALL. Binary thinking does not work "mit Projekt Leitung", but is
> excellent with solving problems.
>
> :-)
>
> It lies a contradiction in what you said, so not to frighten new readers
> on this thread away, I only wanted to clarify.


I'm not really getting what you are hinting at here, because the context
of your lines is unclear to me.

But to pick up on one issue you *might* be aiming at, this list of mine
was not to silence people by saying "hey, we already know all of your
wishes", but rather to raise awareness that we are facing a very broad
range of topics, both within and without immediate visibility to the
casual observer, and that only a small fraction of them can be addressed
at anyone time. This gets easily overlooked when people think about the
question "why don't they do X?!".

We don't "use" our community (funny term, actually), we share. And
integrating new people into the project, in whatever role, is not an
easy task, especially as not many people are willing to go through a
process of regularly answering questions on the mailing list, open
well-documented bugs, provide patches, regularly submit edits for the
manual, take over responsibility for orphaned contributions, or create
and run a country- or domain-specific qooxdoo community on their own,
reliably and with a long-term commitment. Which I fully comprehend,
since everybody is fully absorbed with their own tasks. But that also
means many things are left undone.

T.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automate Storage Tiering Simply
Optimize IT performance and efficiency through flexible, powerful,
automated storage tiering capabilities. View this brief to learn how
you can reduce costs and improve performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
qooxdoo-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
1234