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node.js and qooxdoo

panyasan
Hi,

I am currently looking into node.js (http://nodejs.org/) and am pretty fascinated, actually thinking to creating some of my backend logic with node.js rather than with my usual PHP.

Obviously, node.js cries out for a qx module providing all of the fine OO-stuff that qooxdoo excels in.

Also, it would be a big plus to have a RPCNodeJs server  - promising faster response times than the Apache/PHP solution (I don't know about the rest).

Alternatively, a cometd-like solution (which already exists for node.js) could bypass the jsonrpc transport altogether and implement client-server communication on a very high level with subcribe/publish model - which sounds even more attractive. This also seems like a natural fit for the upcoming client-server databinding.

Has anyone thought about this already or maybe even implemented something?

C.
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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

Siarhei Barysiuk
Hi Christian,

Please check it out:

http://github.com/wittemann/JSON-RPC-for-Node.js
http://github.com/fjakobs/qxoo

But Martin and Fabian know better than me (it's their personal  
repositories). :)

Cheers,
Siarhei

On Jul 28, 2010, at 6:38 PM, panyasan wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> I am currently looking into node.js (http://nodejs.org/) and am pretty
> fascinated, actually thinking to creating some of my backend logic  
> with
> node.js rather than with my usual PHP.
>
> Obviously, node.js cries out for a qx module providing all of the fine
> OO-stuff that qooxdoo excels in.
>
> Also, it would be a big plus to have a RPCNodeJs server  - promising  
> faster
> response times than the Apache/PHP solution (I don't know about the  
> rest).
>
> Alternatively, a cometd-like solution (which already exists for  
> node.js)
> could bypass the jsonrpc transport altogether and implement client-
> server
> communication on a very high level with subcribe/publish model - which
> sounds even more attractive. This also seems like a natural fit for  
> the
> upcoming client-server databinding.
>
> Has anyone thought about this already or maybe even implemented  
> something?
>
> C.
> --
> View this message in context: http://qooxdoo.678.n2.nabble.com/node-js-and-qooxdoo-tp5345772p5345772.html
> Sent from the qooxdoo mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Palm PDK Hot Apps Program offers developers who use the
> Plug-In Development Kit to bring their C/C++ apps to Palm for a share
> of $1 Million in cash or HP Products. Visit us here for more details:
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dev2dev-palm
> _______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel


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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

benco
In reply to this post by panyasan
Hi Christian,

Personally, I am also planning to migrate my PHP works to node.js - it looks really great! - but I'm not yet well familiar with it... so, all I can give to you  for the moment is some links.

Here is a list of (interesting) modules for/based on node.js : http://wiki.github.com/ry/node/modules

You could have a look at this: http://socket.io/ (cross-browser websocket +node.js server solution)

About "qooxdoo OO system" in node.js, the best would be to ask directly to Fabian Jackobs (because the http://github.com/fjakobs/qxoo project has not been updated since January) ...

Best,

Benoît.
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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

MartinWittemann
Administrator
In reply to this post by panyasan
Hello Christian,
sure I have thought about such scenarios. I have tested node.js also and was impressed by its elegance. I once wrote a full JSON RPC layer for node.js which is on my github account [1]. But i'm sure it's not working anymore because ryan (node JS guru) removed the promises one day. So on a rewrite of the qooxdoo RPC layer we could use this code to provide a reference implementation of the RPC (which should cover the spec anyway).

The qooxdoo OO system on node.js was a topic fabian took a look at some time ago on his github account [2]. I'm not sure how good this is still working. His approach was to manually set up a fire including all dependencies and therefore include these files. So we had a prove of concept that qx oo is working on a server but not much more.

If you want to investigate more on this topic, let me know about it. I'm also very interested on all these possibilities with node.js.

Best,
Martin

[1] http://github.com/wittemann/JSON-RPC-for-Node.js
[2] http://github.com/fjakobs/qxoo
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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

panyasan
Cool. I KNEW that the smart qooxdoo devs/community must have already noticed. ;-)

MartinWittemann wrote
Hello Christian,
sure I have thought about such scenarios. I have tested node.js also and was impressed by its elegance. I once wrote a full JSON RPC layer for node.js which is on my github account [1]. But i'm sure it's not working anymore because ryan (node JS guru) removed the promises one day.
Can you elaborate on what exactly they changed?

I'll look into Fabian's code - is he still on the ML and can comment?

Thanks,

Christian
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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

Fabian Jakobs
Administrator
Hi Christian,

I am still on the mailing list by i read only topics which catch my
interest - like yours does :)

my qxoo should still work and provides all OO features and most of
qx.core and qx.lang. The qooxdoo version used is from January but this
shouldn't matter much as this code usually doesn't change frequently.
If you plan to use it let me know,  maybe I can help you getting
started.

We are using node.js for a project at my new company as well and it
works fantastic. Implementing e.g. server push using long polling is
almost trivial.

Best Fabian

P.S.
please CC answers to my private mail

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 7:46 PM, panyasan <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Cool. I KNEW that the smart qooxdoo devs/community must have already noticed.
> ;-)
>
>
> MartinWittemann wrote:
>>
>> Hello Christian,
>> sure I have thought about such scenarios. I have tested node.js also and
>> was impressed by its elegance. I once wrote a full JSON RPC layer for
>> node.js which is on my github account [1]. But i'm sure it's not working
>> anymore because ryan (node JS guru) removed the promises one day.
>>
>
> Can you elaborate on what exactly they changed?
>
> I'll look into Fabian's code - is he still on the ML and can comment?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Christian
> --
> View this message in context: http://qooxdoo.678.n2.nabble.com/node-js-and-qooxdoo-tp5345772p5346009.html
> Sent from the qooxdoo mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Palm PDK Hot Apps Program offers developers who use the
> Plug-In Development Kit to bring their C/C++ apps to Palm for a share
> of $1 Million in cash or HP Products. Visit us here for more details:
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dev2dev-palm
> _______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>

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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

panyasan
In reply to this post by panyasan
Fabian Jakobs wrote
Hi Christian,

I am still on the mailing list by i read only topics which catch my
interest - like yours does :)

my qxoo should still work and provides all OO features and most of
qx.core and qx.lang. The qooxdoo version used is from January but this
shouldn't matter much as this code usually doesn't change frequently.
If you plan to use it let me know,  maybe I can help you getting
started.

We are using node.js for a project at my new company as well and it
works fantastic. Implementing e.g. server push using long polling is
almost trivial.
This is good to know. Since so much work has already been done, wouldn't it be worth to create a meta bug with the aim to create a whole "qooxdoo-node.js stack" of interoperable components in qooxdoo-contrib (rather than in private vcs)?

I think this should be a coordinated issue rather than lots of random implementation attempts. It would certainly add a whole new dimension to the question of a backend for qooxdoo:

- an extremely lightweight server that is easy to install without many prerequisites (as long as you're not on Winodws)
- the ability to work in the same language and with the same class architecture on the server and client
- a potential for unified backend architecture for demos  -- think of a playground with a "client" and a "server" editor!!!
- finally a server-push/cometd-solution for qooxdoo that would integrate naturally into the framework

I don't expect this to materialize any time soon, but I'd be thrilled if the devs would look at this as a future priority. I'd certainly be happy to contribute.

Christian

Fabian Jakobs wrote
P.S. please CC answers to my private mail
I am using nabble (which seems to have a hiccup at the moment - it is not displaying my messages and I saw your message only on sf.net) which doesn't have CC, sorry!
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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

MartinWittemann
Administrator
Hello Christian,
as far as i can say, it's currently not a topic here in the office. All my interests are based on a some nerdy thought. ;)
But opening a bug is still a good idea even if i don't expect us to take care of it in the future, at least not this year for sure. Maybe someone has too much spare time and takes care of it, who knows. :D
Regards,
Martin


Am 29.07.2010 um 08:38 schrieb panyasan:

>
>
> Fabian Jakobs wrote:
>>
>> Hi Christian,
>>
>> I am still on the mailing list by i read only topics which catch my
>> interest - like yours does :)
>>
>> my qxoo should still work and provides all OO features and most of
>> qx.core and qx.lang. The qooxdoo version used is from January but this
>> shouldn't matter much as this code usually doesn't change frequently.
>> If you plan to use it let me know,  maybe I can help you getting
>> started.
>>
>> We are using node.js for a project at my new company as well and it
>> works fantastic. Implementing e.g. server push using long polling is
>> almost trivial.
>>
>
> This is good to know. Since so much work has already been done, wouldn't it
> be worth to create a meta bug with the aim to create a whole
> "qooxdoo-node.js stack" of interoperable components in qooxdoo-contrib
> (rather than in private vcs)?
>
> I think this should be a coordinated issue rather than lots of random
> implementation attempts. It would certainly add a whole new dimension to the
> question of a backend for qooxdoo:
>
> - an extremely lightweight server that is easy to install without many
> prerequisites (as long as you're not on Winodws)
> - the ability to work in the same language and with the same class
> architecture on the server and client
> - a potential for unified backend architecture for demos  -- think of a
> playground with a "client" and a "server" editor!!!
> - finally a server-push/cometd-solution for qooxdoo that would integrate
> naturally into the framework
>
> I don't expect this to materialize any time soon, but I'd be thrilled if the
> devs would look at this as a future priority. I'd certainly be happy to
> contribute.
>
> Christian
>
>
> Fabian Jakobs wrote:
>>
>> P.S. please CC answers to my private mail
>>
>
> I am using nabble (which seems to have a hiccup at the moment - it is not
> displaying my messages and I saw your message only on sf.net) which doesn't
> have CC, sorry!
> --
> View this message in context: http://qooxdoo.678.n2.nabble.com/node-js-and-qooxdoo-tp5345772p5346946.html
> Sent from the qooxdoo mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Palm PDK Hot Apps Program offers developers who use the
> Plug-In Development Kit to bring their C/C++ apps to Palm for a share
> of $1 Million in cash or HP Products. Visit us here for more details:
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dev2dev-palm
> _______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel


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http://p.sf.net/sfu/dev2dev-palm
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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

level420
In reply to this post by Fabian Jakobs

  Hi Fabian,

sorry for nipping into this thread:

Are you using any DB modules/drivers with nodejs?

Are there reliable implementations? Or is there something like odbc/jdbc
(nodejsdbc?)

Thank you for your answer.

Best regards..


Am 29.07.2010 00:56, schrieb Fabian Jakobs:

> Hi Christian,
>
> I am still on the mailing list by i read only topics which catch my
> interest - like yours does :)
>
> my qxoo should still work and provides all OO features and most of
> qx.core and qx.lang. The qooxdoo version used is from January but this
> shouldn't matter much as this code usually doesn't change frequently.
> If you plan to use it let me know,  maybe I can help you getting
> started.
>
> We are using node.js for a project at my new company as well and it
> works fantastic. Implementing e.g. server push using long polling is
> almost trivial.
>
> Best Fabian
>
> P.S.
> please CC answers to my private mail
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 7:46 PM, panyasan<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Cool. I KNEW that the smart qooxdoo devs/community must have already noticed.
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>> MartinWittemann wrote:
>>> Hello Christian,
>>> sure I have thought about such scenarios. I have tested node.js also and
>>> was impressed by its elegance. I once wrote a full JSON RPC layer for
>>> node.js which is on my github account [1]. But i'm sure it's not working
>>> anymore because ryan (node JS guru) removed the promises one day.
>>>
>> Can you elaborate on what exactly they changed?
>>
>> I'll look into Fabian's code - is he still on the ML and can comment?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Christian
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://qooxdoo.678.n2.nabble.com/node-js-and-qooxdoo-tp5345772p5346009.html
>> Sent from the qooxdoo mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The Palm PDK Hot Apps Program offers developers who use the
>> Plug-In Development Kit to bring their C/C++ apps to Palm for a share
>> of $1 Million in cash or HP Products. Visit us here for more details:
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dev2dev-palm
>> _______________________________________________
>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Palm PDK Hot Apps Program offers developers who use the
> Plug-In Development Kit to bring their C/C++ apps to Palm for a share
> of $1 Million in cash or HP Products. Visit us here for more details:
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dev2dev-palm
> _______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel

--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Dietrich Streifert
--
Visionet GmbH
Firmensitz: Am Weichselgarten 7, 91058 Erlangen
Registergericht: Handelsregister Fürth, HRB 6573
Geschäftsführer: Stefan Lindner




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Plug-In Development Kit to bring their C/C++ apps to Palm for a share
of $1 Million in cash or HP Products. Visit us here for more details:
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dev2dev-palm
_______________________________________________
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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

the_sheriff
In reply to this post by panyasan
started writing a chess game server in node.js  and qooxdoo on front-end

http://github.com/wsdookadr/Q-Chess

On 7/28/10, panyasan <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> I am currently looking into node.js (http://nodejs.org/) and am pretty
> fascinated, actually thinking to creating some of my backend logic with
> node.js rather than with my usual PHP.
>
> Obviously, node.js cries out for a qx module providing all of the fine
> OO-stuff that qooxdoo excels in.
>
> Also, it would be a big plus to have a RPCNodeJs server  - promising faster
> response times than the Apache/PHP solution (I don't know about the rest).
>
> Alternatively, a cometd-like solution (which already exists for node.js)
> could bypass the jsonrpc transport altogether and implement client-server
> communication on a very high level with subcribe/publish model - which
> sounds even more attractive. This also seems like a natural fit for the
> upcoming client-server databinding.
>
> Has anyone thought about this already or maybe even implemented something?
>
> C.
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://qooxdoo.678.n2.nabble.com/node-js-and-qooxdoo-tp5345772p5345772.html
> Sent from the qooxdoo mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Palm PDK Hot Apps Program offers developers who use the
> Plug-In Development Kit to bring their C/C++ apps to Palm for a share
> of $1 Million in cash or HP Products. Visit us here for more details:
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dev2dev-palm
> _______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Plug-In Development Kit to bring their C/C++ apps to Palm for a share
of $1 Million in cash or HP Products. Visit us here for more details:
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dev2dev-palm
_______________________________________________
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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

Fabian Jakobs
Administrator
In reply to this post by level420
Hi Dietrich,

I've been using the mongodb and they are pretty solid. I had no luck
with any of the mysql drivers. Our current project uses redis (a
really database) and it works like a charm.

Best Fabian

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Dietrich Streifert
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>  Hi Fabian,
>
> sorry for nipping into this thread:
>
> Are you using any DB modules/drivers with nodejs?
>
> Are there reliable implementations? Or is there something like odbc/jdbc
> (nodejsdbc?)
>
> Thank you for your answer.
>
> Best regards..
>
>
> Am 29.07.2010 00:56, schrieb Fabian Jakobs:
>> Hi Christian,
>>
>> I am still on the mailing list by i read only topics which catch my
>> interest - like yours does :)
>>
>> my qxoo should still work and provides all OO features and most of
>> qx.core and qx.lang. The qooxdoo version used is from January but this
>> shouldn't matter much as this code usually doesn't change frequently.
>> If you plan to use it let me know,  maybe I can help you getting
>> started.
>>
>> We are using node.js for a project at my new company as well and it
>> works fantastic. Implementing e.g. server push using long polling is
>> almost trivial.
>>
>> Best Fabian
>>
>> P.S.
>> please CC answers to my private mail
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 7:46 PM, panyasan<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>> Cool. I KNEW that the smart qooxdoo devs/community must have already noticed.
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> MartinWittemann wrote:
>>>> Hello Christian,
>>>> sure I have thought about such scenarios. I have tested node.js also and
>>>> was impressed by its elegance. I once wrote a full JSON RPC layer for
>>>> node.js which is on my github account [1]. But i'm sure it's not working
>>>> anymore because ryan (node JS guru) removed the promises one day.
>>>>
>>> Can you elaborate on what exactly they changed?
>>>
>>> I'll look into Fabian's code - is he still on the ML and can comment?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Christian
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://qooxdoo.678.n2.nabble.com/node-js-and-qooxdoo-tp5345772p5346009.html
>>> Sent from the qooxdoo mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The Palm PDK Hot Apps Program offers developers who use the
>>> Plug-In Development Kit to bring their C/C++ apps to Palm for a share
>>> of $1 Million in cash or HP Products. Visit us here for more details:
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dev2dev-palm
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The Palm PDK Hot Apps Program offers developers who use the
>> Plug-In Development Kit to bring their C/C++ apps to Palm for a share
>> of $1 Million in cash or HP Products. Visit us here for more details:
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dev2dev-palm
>> _______________________________________________
>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>
> --
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> Dietrich Streifert
> --
> Visionet GmbH
> Firmensitz: Am Weichselgarten 7, 91058 Erlangen
> Registergericht: Handelsregister Fürth, HRB 6573
> Geschäftsführer: Stefan Lindner
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Palm PDK Hot Apps Program offers developers who use the
> Plug-In Development Kit to bring their C/C++ apps to Palm for a share
> of $1 Million in cash or HP Products. Visit us here for more details:
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/dev2dev-palm
> _______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>

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of $1 Million in cash or HP Products. Visit us here for more details:
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dev2dev-palm
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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

panyasan
Hi,

this weekend I started experimenting with node.js and Socket.IO, in order to implement a solution that will hook into the qx.event.message system (replacing the cometd contribution which I will no longer maintain). It didn't go as fast as I originally thought -- for example, when mixing the socket functionality with static file server functionality to server the initial qooxdoo files. However, I hope to be able to commit a proof-of-concept soon.

Cheers,

Christian
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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

benco
Hi Christian,

Thanks for the report.

I don't know if it is your case but I've heard that using Apache as http server for node.js applications is not recommended/adapted. Nginx seems to be a better candidate. Maybe you could give it a try ?

Best,

Benoît.
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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

panyasan
Hi Benoît,

actually, what I have in mind is to replace Apache altogether for the node.js part. I have the feeling that small qooxdoo apps could do without Apache if a server script based on node.js can supply all the files that are needed for the initial loading of the client application, and then switch to an event-driven bidirectional socket communication with the server plus node.js-based json-rpc.

I think this could server as a complete out-of-the-box client-server solution. I have no idea if that would scale well, but for the kind of applications I of which am thinking, this seems to be a much better solution than resource-hungry Apache or other other backends.

Any thoughts?

C.
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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

the_sheriff
In reply to this post by panyasan
lines 185-216 serve static qooxdoo files
http://github.com/wsdookadr/Q-Chess/blob/master/server/serv.js

cheers

On 8/2/10, panyasan <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> this weekend I started experimenting with node.js and Socket.IO, in order to
> implement a solution that will hook into the qx.event.message system
> (replacing the cometd contribution which I will no longer maintain). It
> didn't go as fast as I originally thought -- for example, when mixing the
> socket functionality with static file server functionality to server the
> initial qooxdoo files. However, I hope to be able to commit a
> proof-of-concept soon.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Christian
> --
> View this message in context:
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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

Thomas Herchenroeder
In reply to this post by panyasan


On 08/02/2010 12:02 PM, panyasan wrote:

>
> Hi Benoît,
>
> actually, what I have in mind is to replace Apache altogether for the
> node.js part. I have the feeling that small qooxdoo apps could do without
> Apache if a server script based on node.js can supply all the files that are
> needed for the initial loading of the client application, and then switch to
> an event-driven bidirectional socket communication with the server plus
> node.js-based json-rpc.
>
> I think this could server as a complete out-of-the-box client-server
> solution. I have no idea if that would scale well, but for the kind of
> applications I of which am thinking, this seems to be a much better solution
> than resource-hungry Apache or other other backends.
>
> Any thoughts?

+1 definitely.

T.

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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

panyasan
In reply to this post by the_sheriff
the_sheriff wrote
Cool, thanks! Learning by example is the fastest way forward :-)

C.
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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

benco
In reply to this post by panyasan
Hi,

panyasan wrote
actually, what I have in mind is to replace Apache altogether for the node.js part
All Right. Yep indeed, in theory, node.js doesn't need another http server.

But I heard that, according to the creator, nodejs isn’t really ready for replacing http server yet - however, I don't know if it still the case nowadays.

Anyway, if it's just for preliminary tests purpose, I should be fine I suppose :).
 
Regards,

Benoît.

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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

the_sheriff
On 8/2/10, benco <[hidden email]> wrote:
> All Right. Yep indeed, in theory, node.js doesn't need another http server.
>
> But I heard that, according to the creator, nodejs isn’t really ready for
> replacing http server yet - however, I don't know if it still the case
> nowadays.


I'm pretty sure it can succesfuly replace the HTTP server, it's just
reading a file
on disk and serving it.. not so hard.

> Benoît.
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://qooxdoo.678.n2.nabble.com/node-js-and-qooxdoo-tp5345772p5364268.html
> Sent from the qooxdoo mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: node.js and qooxdoo

Burak Arslan-2
 On 08/02/10 17:36, b a wrote:

> On 8/2/10, benco <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> All Right. Yep indeed, in theory, node.js doesn't need another http server.
>>
>> But I heard that, according to the creator, nodejs isn’t really ready for
>> replacing http server yet - however, I don't know if it still the case
>> nowadays.
>
> I'm pretty sure it can succesfuly replace the HTTP server, it's just
> reading a file
> on disk and serving it.. not so hard.

apache has years of experience dealing with dos attacks, broken clients,
malicious input etc. it's also the swiss army knife of web servers. you
can't throw all that away that easily.

burak


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