Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment

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Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment

John Spackman

Hi guys,

 

We have some server side code that is written in Javascript and is executed by Rhino; I am *so* pleased to have a proper object model when developing client code but the more complex the server side gets the more I want to develop server classes in the same way.

 

Has anyone experimented with a non-GUI, server-only version of the Qx framework? 

 

I’d be really interested to know if anyone has experimented with this before, and/or what the potential issues might be in making Qx server-side compatible.  For example, my (completely uninformed) guess is that the generator would work just fine except that the bootloader it produces would need to work differently (i.e. loading of scripts etc), and potentially there might need to be a way to exclude some classes or packages.

 

On a possibly related note,  how does the qx.application.Native get used?

 

Regards

John

 

 


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Re: Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
HI John,

I didn't try it but I'm thinking to it since long time, at least for some part of the server code.
I would be very interested to know the context of your project.
How did you arrive to that idea ?
What are the big figures of your project : number of end-user, do you have a database, do you have SQL ...
How will you address the persistence of the data manipulated by the qx application ?
Concurrency on server side ?
Scalability ?

Regards,
JBB.

On Nov 19, 2009, at 17:34 , John Spackman wrote:

Hi guys,
 
We have some server side code that is written in Javascript and is executed by Rhino; I am *so* pleased to have a proper object model when developing client code but the more complex the server side gets the more I want to develop server classes in the same way.
 
Has anyone experimented with a non-GUI, server-only version of the Qx framework? 
 
I’d be really interested to know if anyone has experimented with this before, and/or what the potential issues might be in making Qx server-side compatible.  For example, my (completely uninformed) guess is that the generator would work just fine except that the bootloader it produces would need to work differently (i.e. loading of scripts etc), and potentially there might need to be a way to exclude some classes or packages.
 
On a possibly related note,  how does the qx.application.Native get used?
 
Regards
John
 
 
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Re: Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment

Fabian Jakobs
Administrator
In reply to this post by John Spackman
Hi John,

it's interesting you come up with this right now. This week I was toying
around with the idea to create a qooxdoo OO module for narwhal. Narwhal
is a server side JavaScript engine, which implements the commonJS
standard. After some tweaking I now have a version, which supports basic
features like qx.Class.define and qx.lang.*. You can get it from
<http://github.com/fjakobs/qxoo>.

Best Fabian

>
> Hi guys,
>
> We have some server side code that is written in Javascript and is
> executed by Rhino; I am **so** pleased to have a proper object model
> when developing client code but the more complex the server side gets
> the more I want to develop server classes in the same way.
>
> Has anyone experimented with a non-GUI, server-only version of the Qx
> framework?
>
> I’d be really interested to know if anyone has experimented with this
> before, and/or what the potential issues might be in making Qx
> server-side compatible. For example, my (completely uninformed) guess
> is that the generator would work just fine except that the bootloader
> it produces would need to work differently (i.e. loading of scripts
> etc), and potentially there might need to be a way to exclude some
> classes or packages.
>
> On a possibly related note, how does the qx.application.Native get used?
>
> Regards
>
> John
>

--
Fabian Jakobs
JavaScript Framework Developer

1&1 Internet AG - Web Technologies
Ernst-Frey-Straße 9 · DE-76135 Karlsruhe
Telefon: +49 721 91374-6784
[hidden email]

Amtsgericht Montabaur / HRB 6484
Vorstände: Henning Ahlert, Ralph Dommermuth, Matthias Ehrlich, Thomas Gottschlich, Robert Hoffmann, Markus Huhn, Hans-Henning Kettler, Dr. Oliver Mauss, Jan Oetjen
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Re: Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment

John Spackman
Hi Fabian,

Oh very cool timing :)  I'll see if I can't read the manual over the weekend
and take a look at qxoo.

Cheers
John

-----Original Message-----
From: Fabian Jakobs [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 20 November 2009 9:58 AM
To: qooxdoo Development
Subject: Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment

Hi John,

it's interesting you come up with this right now. This week I was toying
around with the idea to create a qooxdoo OO module for narwhal. Narwhal
is a server side JavaScript engine, which implements the commonJS
standard. After some tweaking I now have a version, which supports basic
features like qx.Class.define and qx.lang.*. You can get it from
<http://github.com/fjakobs/qxoo>.

Best Fabian

>
> Hi guys,
>
> We have some server side code that is written in Javascript and is
> executed by Rhino; I am **so** pleased to have a proper object model
> when developing client code but the more complex the server side gets
> the more I want to develop server classes in the same way.
>
> Has anyone experimented with a non-GUI, server-only version of the Qx
> framework?
>
> I’d be really interested to know if anyone has experimented with this
> before, and/or what the potential issues might be in making Qx
> server-side compatible. For example, my (completely uninformed) guess
> is that the generator would work just fine except that the bootloader
> it produces would need to work differently (i.e. loading of scripts
> etc), and potentially there might need to be a way to exclude some
> classes or packages.
>
> On a possibly related note, how does the qx.application.Native get used?
>
> Regards
>
> John
>

--
Fabian Jakobs
JavaScript Framework Developer

1&1 Internet AG - Web Technologies
Ernst-Frey-Straße 9 · DE-76135 Karlsruhe
Telefon: +49 721 91374-6784
[hidden email]

Amtsgericht Montabaur / HRB 6484
Vorstände: Henning Ahlert, Ralph Dommermuth, Matthias Ehrlich, Thomas
Gottschlich, Robert Hoffmann, Markus Huhn, Hans-Henning Kettler, Dr. Oliver
Mauss, Jan Oetjen
Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Michael Scheeren


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Re: Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment

John Spackman
In reply to this post by Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog

Hi JB

 

We’ve been using server-side JS for a while now, it forms the glue between pages and also the server side of the apps that we build.  Each app is defined in XML and then compiled into Qx code for the client; the properties are kept synchronised between the client and the user’s session on the server, events fired on the client can be caught by the server, and functions can be called on the client by the server (or vice-versa).  The widgets bind automatically to XML documents which are persisted in the database. 

 

Up until now, the server side JS for the Qx apps has been strictly procedural programming – i.e. functions only, and reuse is by including other .js files.  There has always been scope to really improve server side integration by building smart objects rather than being restricted to just a function call, but it’s been a low priority.  Now that at least one app is getting particularly complex it’s more justifiable to look at it again.

 

The app is for use on our customer’s extranet by external suppliers so we know our users quite well and we’re confident that scalability won’t be a problem – worst case is that we have to buy a couple of extra Gb of RAM J

 

John

 

From: Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 20 November 2009 8:06 AM
To: qooxdoo Development
Subject: Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment

 

HI John,

 

I didn't try it but I'm thinking to it since long time, at least for some part of the server code.

I would be very interested to know the context of your project.

How did you arrive to that idea ?

What are the big figures of your project : number of end-user, do you have a database, do you have SQL ...

How will you address the persistence of the data manipulated by the qx application ?

Concurrency on server side ?

Scalability ?

 

Regards,

JBB.

 

On Nov 19, 2009, at 17:34 , John Spackman wrote:



Hi guys,

 

We have some server side code that is written in Javascript and is executed by Rhino; I am *so* pleased to have a proper object model when developing client code but the more complex the server side gets the more I want to develop server classes in the same way.

 

Has anyone experimented with a non-GUI, server-only version of the Qx framework? 

 

I’d be really interested to know if anyone has experimented with this before, and/or what the potential issues might be in making Qx server-side compatible.  For example, my (completely uninformed) guess is that the generator would work just fine except that the bootloader it produces would need to work differently (i.e. loading of scripts etc), and potentially there might need to be a way to exclude some classes or packages.

 

On a possibly related note,  how does the qx.application.Native get used?

 

Regards

John

 

 

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Re: Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
http://ajaxian.com/archives/full-frontal-09-simon-willison-on-server-side-javascript-and-node-js

On Nov 20, 2009, at 19:30 , John Spackman wrote:

Hi JB
 
We’ve been using server-side JS for a while now, it forms the glue between pages and also the server side of the apps that we build.  Each app is defined in XML and then compiled into Qx code for the client; the properties are kept synchronised between the client and the user’s session on the server, events fired on the client can be caught by the server, and functions can be called on the client by the server (or vice-versa).  The widgets bind automatically to XML documents which are persisted in the database. 
 
Up until now, the server side JS for the Qx apps has been strictly procedural programming – i.e. functions only, and reuse is by including other .js files.  There has always been scope to really improve server side integration by building smart objects rather than being restricted to just a function call, but it’s been a low priority.  Now that at least one app is getting particularly complex it’s more justifiable to look at it again.
 
The app is for use on our customer’s extranet by external suppliers so we know our users quite well and we’re confident that scalability won’t be a problem – worst case is that we have to buy a couple of extra Gb of RAM J
 
John
 
From: Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog [mailto:[hidden email]] 
Sent: 20 November 2009 8:06 AM
To: qooxdoo Development
Subject: Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment
 
HI John,
 
I didn't try it but I'm thinking to it since long time, at least for some part of the server code.
I would be very interested to know the context of your project.
How did you arrive to that idea ?
What are the big figures of your project : number of end-user, do you have a database, do you have SQL ...
How will you address the persistence of the data manipulated by the qx application ?
Concurrency on server side ?
Scalability ?
 
Regards,
JBB.
 
On Nov 19, 2009, at 17:34 , John Spackman wrote:


Hi guys,
 
We have some server side code that is written in Javascript and is executed by Rhino; I am *so* pleased to have a proper object model when developing client code but the more complex the server side gets the more I want to develop server classes in the same way.
 
Has anyone experimented with a non-GUI, server-only version of the Qx framework? 
 
I’d be really interested to know if anyone has experimented with this before, and/or what the potential issues might be in making Qx server-side compatible.  For example, my (completely uninformed) guess is that the generator would work just fine except that the bootloader it produces would need to work differently (i.e. loading of scripts etc), and potentially there might need to be a way to exclude some classes or packages.
 
On a possibly related note,  how does the qx.application.Native get used?
 
Regards
John
 
 
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Re: Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment

Fabian Jakobs
Administrator
In reply to this post by John Spackman
Hi John,

which server side JS implementation are you using? I have tested the
qooxdoo code only with "narwhal" but in theory it should work with any
ommonJS complient implementation.

Best Fabian

>
> Hi JB
>
> We’ve been using server-side JS for a while now, it forms the glue
> between pages and also the server side of the apps that we build. Each
> app is defined in XML and then compiled into Qx code for the client;
> the properties are kept synchronised between the client and the user’s
> session on the server, events fired on the client can be caught by the
> server, and functions can be called on the client by the server (or
> vice-versa). The widgets bind automatically to XML documents which are
> persisted in the database.
>
> Up until now, the server side JS for the Qx apps has been strictly
> procedural programming – i.e. functions only, and reuse is by
> including other .js files. There has always been scope to really
> improve server side integration by building smart objects rather than
> being restricted to just a function call, but it’s been a low
> priority. Now that at least one app is getting particularly complex
> it’s more justifiable to look at it again.
>
> The app is for use on our customer’s extranet by external suppliers so
> we know our users quite well and we’re confident that scalability
> won’t be a problem – worst case is that we have to buy a couple of
> extra Gb of RAM J
>
> John
>
> *From:* Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog [mailto:[hidden email]]
> *Sent:* 20 November 2009 8:06 AM
> *To:* qooxdoo Development
> *Subject:* Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment
>
> HI John,
>
> I didn't try it but I'm thinking to it since long time, at least for
> some part of the server code.
>
> I would be very interested to know the context of your project.
>
> How did you arrive to that idea ?
>
> What are the big figures of your project : number of end-user, do you
> have a database, do you have SQL ...
>
> How will you address the persistence of the data manipulated by the qx
> application ?
>
> Concurrency on server side ?
>
> Scalability ?
>
> Regards,
>
> JBB.
>
> On Nov 19, 2009, at 17:34 , John Spackman wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> We have some server side code that is written in Javascript and is
> executed by Rhino; I am **so** pleased to have a proper object model
> when developing client code but the more complex the server side gets
> the more I want to develop server classes in the same way.
>
> Has anyone experimented with a non-GUI, server-only version of the Qx
> framework?
>
> I’d be really interested to know if anyone has experimented with this
> before, and/or what the potential issues might be in making Qx
> server-side compatible. For example, my (completely uninformed) guess
> is that the generator would work just fine except that the bootloader
> it produces would need to work differently (i.e. loading of scripts
> etc), and potentially there might need to be a way to exclude some
> classes or packages.
>
> On a possibly related note, how does the qx.application.Native get used?
>
> Regards
>
> John
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
> 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and
> focus on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july_______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>  


--
Fabian Jakobs
JavaScript Framework Developer

1&1 Internet AG - Web Technologies
Ernst-Frey-Straße 9 · DE-76135 Karlsruhe
Telefon: +49 721 91374-6784
[hidden email]

Amtsgericht Montabaur / HRB 6484
Vorstände: Henning Ahlert, Ralph Dommermuth, Matthias Ehrlich, Thomas Gottschlich, Robert Hoffmann, Markus Huhn, Hans-Henning Kettler, Dr. Oliver Mauss, Jan Oetjen
Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Michael Scheeren


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Re: Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment

John Spackman
Hi Fabian,

We're using our own Java based framework which uses JS in a few specific
places so we don't have a serious server side JS framework to speak of (so
far).  Narwhal particularly seems a suitable place to start although it does
mean a steeper learning curve than I expected, and there isn't any
documentation on embedding Narwhal.

Am I right in saying that the generator doesn't apply to Qxoo?  If it's a
given that the server only needs to load code once and then keeps it, would
this mean that the generator has little benefit in a server-side
environment?

John

-----Original Message-----
From: Fabian Jakobs [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 23 November 2009 10:11 AM
To: qooxdoo Development
Subject: Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment

Hi John,

which server side JS implementation are you using? I have tested the
qooxdoo code only with "narwhal" but in theory it should work with any
ommonJS complient implementation.

Best Fabian

>
> Hi JB
>
> We’ve been using server-side JS for a while now, it forms the glue
> between pages and also the server side of the apps that we build. Each
> app is defined in XML and then compiled into Qx code for the client;
> the properties are kept synchronised between the client and the user’s
> session on the server, events fired on the client can be caught by the
> server, and functions can be called on the client by the server (or
> vice-versa). The widgets bind automatically to XML documents which are
> persisted in the database.
>
> Up until now, the server side JS for the Qx apps has been strictly
> procedural programming – i.e. functions only, and reuse is by
> including other .js files. There has always been scope to really
> improve server side integration by building smart objects rather than
> being restricted to just a function call, but it’s been a low
> priority. Now that at least one app is getting particularly complex
> it’s more justifiable to look at it again.
>
> The app is for use on our customer’s extranet by external suppliers so
> we know our users quite well and we’re confident that scalability
> won’t be a problem – worst case is that we have to buy a couple of
> extra Gb of RAM J
>
> John
>
> *From:* Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog [mailto:[hidden email]]
> *Sent:* 20 November 2009 8:06 AM
> *To:* qooxdoo Development
> *Subject:* Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment
>
> HI John,
>
> I didn't try it but I'm thinking to it since long time, at least for
> some part of the server code.
>
> I would be very interested to know the context of your project.
>
> How did you arrive to that idea ?
>
> What are the big figures of your project : number of end-user, do you
> have a database, do you have SQL ...
>
> How will you address the persistence of the data manipulated by the qx
> application ?
>
> Concurrency on server side ?
>
> Scalability ?
>
> Regards,
>
> JBB.
>
> On Nov 19, 2009, at 17:34 , John Spackman wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> We have some server side code that is written in Javascript and is
> executed by Rhino; I am **so** pleased to have a proper object model
> when developing client code but the more complex the server side gets
> the more I want to develop server classes in the same way.
>
> Has anyone experimented with a non-GUI, server-only version of the Qx
> framework?
>
> I’d be really interested to know if anyone has experimented with this
> before, and/or what the potential issues might be in making Qx
> server-side compatible. For example, my (completely uninformed) guess
> is that the generator would work just fine except that the bootloader
> it produces would need to work differently (i.e. loading of scripts
> etc), and potentially there might need to be a way to exclude some
> classes or packages.
>
> On a possibly related note, how does the qx.application.Native get used?
>
> Regards
>
> John
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and
> focus on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
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>
http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july_______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
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>
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>  


--
Fabian Jakobs
JavaScript Framework Developer

1&1 Internet AG - Web Technologies
Ernst-Frey-Straße 9 · DE-76135 Karlsruhe
Telefon: +49 721 91374-6784
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Re: Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment

Thomas Herchenroeder


John Spackman wrote:

> Hi Fabian,
>
> We're using our own Java based framework which uses JS in a few specific
> places so we don't have a serious server side JS framework to speak of (so
> far).  Narwhal particularly seems a suitable place to start although it does
> mean a steeper learning curve than I expected, and there isn't any
> documentation on embedding Narwhal.
>
> Am I right in saying that the generator doesn't apply to Qxoo?  If it's a
> given that the server only needs to load code once and then keeps it, would
> this mean that the generator has little benefit in a server-side
> environment?
>  

Ok, let's just sweep through the features of the generator, and see if
they apply:

- code compression: probably not relevant as you don't have to concern
yourself with bandwidth and download times on the server, but could be
interesting if the server process keeps source code in memory (rather
than byte code), as compression could reduce memory footprint

- dependency analysis: this could still be interesting as it reduces the
overall number of classes considered for a given application; if the
alternative is having all classes available all the time, this is just
another form of reducing the amount of code in the server (the result of
the dependency analysis might be different, though, maybe some form of
"include" file containing a lot of "require()" expressions)

- api generation: still applies

- test, inspector: probably not

- translation: yes, sir

- coding support like 'fix', 'pretty', 'migration': still apply

T.

>  

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Re: Using Qooxdoo core in a non-Web environment

Fabian Jakobs
Administrator
In reply to this post by John Spackman
John Spackman schrieb:

> Hi Fabian,
>
> We're using our own Java based framework which uses JS in a few specific
> places so we don't have a serious server side JS framework to speak of (so
> far).  Narwhal particularly seems a suitable place to start although it does
> mean a steeper learning curve than I expected, and there isn't any
> documentation on embedding Narwhal.
>
> Am I right in saying that the generator doesn't apply to Qxoo?  If it's a
> given that the server only needs to load code once and then keeps it, would
> this mean that the generator has little benefit in a server-side
> environment?
>  
At the moment qxoo doesn't require a build step from the user. You can
simply use something like:

var Class = require("qx.Class.define");

The only requirement to use it is a commonJS module loader so it will
probably not work in your setup. I have tested it on Narwhal and
node.js. Please keep in mind that it is still a private toy project and
in no way official qooxdoo code :-)

Best Fabian


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Amtsgericht Montabaur / HRB 6484
Vorstände: Henning Ahlert, Ralph Dommermuth, Matthias Ehrlich, Thomas Gottschlich, Robert Hoffmann, Markus Huhn, Hans-Henning Kettler, Dr. Oliver Mauss, Jan Oetjen
Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Michael Scheeren


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