Stack Overflow

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Stack Overflow

MartinWittemann
Administrator
Hi,
you might all have read our newest blog post about Stack Overflow:
http://news.qooxdoo.org/qooxdoo-on-stack-overflow
We like to know your opinion about posting questions. Do you continue to use the mailing list for support questions or do you think you will use Stack Overflow?
Best,
Martin
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Re: Stack Overflow

Thomas Herchenroeder
+1

As it is dedicated to Q&A, StackOverflow might prove a valuable tool. It
not only lets you see existing questions when typing in a new one, which
helps to avoid duplicates. As all questions and answered are stored, it
is easier to search existing questions, link to questions and specific
answers, and get to the best/most relevant answers fast (through answers
acceptance and ranking). This might make for a better knowledge base
than the mailing list together with Nabble are. Moreover, SO hits are
ranked highly in Google, so that even Google searches will bring up
relevant hits early on. In contrast to Nabble, uploads are not possible,
though, but that can probably be fixed otherwise.

You will need an OpenId to use SO, but many popular web services like
Google, Yahoo!, AOL, etc. act as OpenID providers, so you can re-use any
existing accounts you have with them to login in to SO.

T.

MartinWittemann wrote:
> Hi,
> you might all have read our newest blog post about Stack Overflow:
> http://news.qooxdoo.org/qooxdoo-on-stack-overflow
> We like to know your opinion about posting questions. Do you continue to use
> the mailing list for support questions or do you think you will use Stack
> Overflow?
> Best,
> Martin
>  

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Re: Stack Overflow

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
In reply to this post by MartinWittemann
I didn't know StackOverflow.
I have to admit I'm very conformable with email where I can dig, search, ...
Because I'm very satisfied with current solution and also because I'm lazy, I do not plan to switch to StackOverflow.

If the support doesn't switch to StackOverflow but is maintained in parallel with mailing list, how will you manage both without "diluting" the support ?

I may ask question already answered in StackOverflow but how would I know ?
I may be interested by an answer given in StackOverflow, but how would I know ?
It is also true in the other direction : how StackOverflow people will know about what's happen in the mailing list ?
In other words, that parallel run appears dangerous to me : dilute support and dilute community.

Is there a way to automatically cross post from one to the other so everyone will be free to choose the best client to the support : email client or web browser ?
If there is no way to do that I suggest a "big switch" pattern for all the community rather than a long step by step extinction of the mailing list.

Finally, I reckon on your experience and community experience and finally move to StackOverflow if it is said to be better.

On Jan 7, 2010, at 12:15 , MartinWittemann wrote:

>
> Hi,
> you might all have read our newest blog post about Stack Overflow:
> http://news.qooxdoo.org/qooxdoo-on-stack-overflow
> We like to know your opinion about posting questions. Do you continue to use
> the mailing list for support questions or do you think you will use Stack
> Overflow?
> Best,
> Martin
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Stack-Overflow-tp4265923p4265923.html
> Sent from the qooxdoo mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>


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Re: Stack Overflow

Skar-3
In reply to this post by Thomas Herchenroeder
thron7 wrote:
> +1
>  
I'd vote a + too :)

We can easily follow a particular topic using a tag, which is easier
than ML IMO.

cheers,
skar.

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--
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Re: Stack Overflow

fritz
In reply to this post by MartinWittemann
The blog post says I can "subscribe to a feed" ... from that I thought I
could subscribe to a stackoverflow->eMail feed. Is this just wishful
thinking? I can't find that on the (public without login) SO site.

My point is, eMail I receive "automatically" (as eMail is my main
communication tool and thus "always open". A website I must actively
monitor.

Cheers,
Fritz

On Thu, 7 Jan 2010, MartinWittemann wrote:

>
> Hi,
> you might all have read our newest blog post about Stack Overflow:
> http://news.qooxdoo.org/qooxdoo-on-stack-overflow
> We like to know your opinion about posting questions. Do you continue to use
> the mailing list for support questions or do you think you will use Stack
> Overflow?
> Best,
> Martin
>

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Re: Stack Overflow

Loïc Bresson -- Novlog
In reply to this post by Skar-3
Hi :)

Stack Overflow can be a great tool (I won't repeat the blog statements), and it
may give more visibility to qooxdoo on the web, but I don't like the idea of
having two different places where problems are debated. IMHO, I think all
problems should be posted either on the ML or SO, but not on both, in order not
to divide the "helping power" of qooxdoo.
And let's suppose half people use the ML and half people use SO (that's just an
example), that means there will be twice less people on both the ML and SO that
will be able to respond to other users question.

As for what I will do, I think I'll use the place where there will seem to be
more people.

Regards.

--
Loïc Bresson


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Re: Stack Overflow

MartinWittemann
Administrator
In reply to this post by fritz
Hi Fritz,
be a feed I thought of a RSS feed. You can subscribe to that which will serve as well because you don't have to monitor the side my yourself. But to avoid misunderstandings, i changed the blog post to RSS-feed instead of feed. :)
Best,
Martin


Fritz Zaucker-2 wrote
The blog post says I can "subscribe to a feed" ... from that I thought I
could subscribe to a stackoverflow->eMail feed. Is this just wishful
thinking? I can't find that on the (public without login) SO site.

My point is, eMail I receive "automatically" (as eMail is my main
communication tool and thus "always open". A website I must actively
monitor.

Cheers,
Fritz

On Thu, 7 Jan 2010, MartinWittemann wrote:

>
> Hi,
> you might all have read our newest blog post about Stack Overflow:
> http://news.qooxdoo.org/qooxdoo-on-stack-overflow
> We like to know your opinion about posting questions. Do you continue to use
> the mailing list for support questions or do you think you will use Stack
> Overflow?
> Best,
> Martin
>

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Re: Stack Overflow

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
I would not like to exchange an email with a RSS feed.

Email are from far much better.

On Jan 7, 2010, at 13:59 , MartinWittemann wrote:

>
> Hi Fritz,
> be a feed I thought of a RSS feed. You can subscribe to that which will
> serve as well because you don't have to monitor the side my yourself. But to
> avoid misunderstandings, i changed the blog post to RSS-feed instead of
> feed. :)
> Best,
> Martin
>
>
>
> Fritz Zaucker-2 wrote:
>>
>> The blog post says I can "subscribe to a feed" ... from that I thought I
>> could subscribe to a stackoverflow->eMail feed. Is this just wishful
>> thinking? I can't find that on the (public without login) SO site.
>>
>> My point is, eMail I receive "automatically" (as eMail is my main
>> communication tool and thus "always open". A website I must actively
>> monitor.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Fritz
>>
>> On Thu, 7 Jan 2010, MartinWittemann wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> you might all have read our newest blog post about Stack Overflow:
>>> http://news.qooxdoo.org/qooxdoo-on-stack-overflow
>>> We like to know your opinion about posting questions. Do you continue to
>>> use
>>> the mailing list for support questions or do you think you will use Stack
>>> Overflow?
>>> Best,
>>> Martin
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Oetiker+Partner AG tel: +41 62 775 9903 (direct)
>> Fritz Zaucker                        +41 62 775 9900 (switch board)
>> Aarweg 15                            +41 79 675 0630 (mobile)
>> CH-4600 Olten                   fax: +41 62 775 9905
>> Schweiz                         web: www.oetiker.ch
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community
>> Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support
>> A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app distribution fast and
>> easy
>> Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-dev2dev 
>> _______________________________________________
>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Stack-Overflow-tp4265923p4266312.html
> Sent from the qooxdoo mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Stack Overflow

MartinWittemann
Administrator
Why do you think so?


Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog wrote
I would not like to exchange an email with a RSS feed.

Email are from far much better.

On Jan 7, 2010, at 13:59 , MartinWittemann wrote:
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Re: Stack Overflow

fritz
In reply to this post by MartinWittemann
Hi Martin,

thanks for the clarification.

Cheers,
Fritz

On Thu, 7 Jan 2010, MartinWittemann wrote:

>
> Hi Fritz,
> be a feed I thought of a RSS feed. You can subscribe to that which will
> serve as well because you don't have to monitor the side my yourself. But to
> avoid misunderstandings, i changed the blog post to RSS-feed instead of
> feed. :)
> Best,
> Martin
>
> Fritz Zaucker-2 wrote:
>>
>> The blog post says I can "subscribe to a feed" ... from that I thought I
>> could subscribe to a stackoverflow->eMail feed. Is this just wishful
>> thinking? I can't find that on the (public without login) SO site.
>>
>> My point is, eMail I receive "automatically" (as eMail is my main
>> communication tool and thus "always open". A website I must actively
>> monitor.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Fritz
>>
>> On Thu, 7 Jan 2010, MartinWittemann wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> you might all have read our newest blog post about Stack Overflow:
>>> http://news.qooxdoo.org/qooxdoo-on-stack-overflow
>>> We like to know your opinion about posting questions. Do you continue to
>>> use
>>> the mailing list for support questions or do you think you will use Stack
>>> Overflow?
>>> Best,
>>> Martin
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Oetiker+Partner AG tel: +41 62 775 9903 (direct)
>> Fritz Zaucker                        +41 62 775 9900 (switch board)
>> Aarweg 15                            +41 79 675 0630 (mobile)
>> CH-4600 Olten                   fax: +41 62 775 9905
>> Schweiz                         web: www.oetiker.ch
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community
>> Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support
>> A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app distribution fast and
>> easy
>> Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-dev2dev
>> _______________________________________________
>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>
>>
>
>

--
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Fritz Zaucker                        +41 62 775 9900 (switch board)
Aarweg 15                            +41 79 675 0630 (mobile)
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Re: Stack Overflow

Krycek
In reply to this post by MartinWittemann
Since stackoverflow is a high traffic site, qooxdoo would receive a lot of "press" for free.

I dont usually use/visit stackoverflow, but it wouldn't be a problem for me. 

On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 11:13 AM, MartinWittemann <[hidden email]> wrote:

Why do you think so?



Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog wrote:
>
> I would not like to exchange an email with a RSS feed.
>
> Email are from far much better.
>
> On Jan 7, 2010, at 13:59 , MartinWittemann wrote:
>

--
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Re: Stack Overflow

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
In reply to this post by MartinWittemann
because I didn't found a good RSS reader
because reading RSS is not like reading email
because I can't dig on all RSS "thing" : I keep all email from mailing list and dig into it when I have a question
because I did try to use RSS reader for tech survey and it never worked as expected, was using too much CPU, ... I gave up
because when offline I can read all received email while I won't be able to have anything that work using RSS
because when offline I can write an email that will be sent later but I won't be able to write my question on StackOverflow
because email are really simpler, well known, already there

But the question is not why do I prefer email over RSS feed,
the question is what's wrong with the current stuff everyone like ?
Why would you want to change it while it seem to satisfy the majority (according to the poll) ?

Why not try to cross post to StackOverflow ?
The reference would be the mailing list but for those, who are obviously not here, that do not want to use email could use StackOverflow.
Note they already could use the forum.qooxdoo.org, so I still don't see why StackOverflow would be good for qooxdoo.

I had a closer look to StackOverflow but was not able to find a "qooxdoo corner".
Again, if this current qooxdoo corner (the mailing list) is replace by a qooxdoo tag in StackOverflow, I feel I'm losing something : the community aspect.
It look like StackOverflow is like a big big pot of questions not related but tag might help to sort that out.
Maybe I'm wrong since I didn't even heard about StackOverflow before this post.


What do you think ?

On Jan 7, 2010, at 14:13 , MartinWittemann wrote:

>
> Why do you think so?
>
>
>
> Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog wrote:
>>
>> I would not like to exchange an email with a RSS feed.
>>
>> Email are from far much better.
>>
>> On Jan 7, 2010, at 13:59 , MartinWittemann wrote:
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Stack-Overflow-tp4265923p4266368.html
> Sent from the qooxdoo mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Stack Overflow

Derrell Lipman
In reply to this post by Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 07:25, Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog <[hidden email]> wrote:

Is there a way to automatically cross post from one to the other so everyone will be free to choose the best client to the support : email client or web browser ?

That is the $1,000,000 question. I know myself well enough to know that if I have to actively go to a web site or to an RSS reader to look for stuff, it just won't happen. My brain's polling implementaiton is poor; my interrupt-driven implementation is far better. If something pops up on my screen and smacks me in the face, I'll read it; otherwise I'm unlikely to. For this reason email is by far the best means of communication for me. Other people work well in a forum-type environment. If we can somehow get the two mechanisms to talk to each other and cross-post, it'll be great. Otherwise I agree with Jean-Babtiste's assessment that having two mechanisms will fragment the community.

Derrell


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Re: Stack Overflow

Thomas Herchenroeder
In reply to this post by Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog


Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog wrote:
> I didn't know StackOverflow.
> I have to admit I'm very conformable with email where I can dig, search, ...
>  

But how do you do that? You can't possibly maintain an archive of all
list mails since you subscribed, can you?! And if you do, what about
mails prior to your subscription? What about people that subscribed just
last week? They have no personal archive to dig into. I, for one, keep
list mails for 2 weeks, then they are automatically purged. That means I
can at most search 2 weeks backward in my personal mail box.

> Because I'm very satisfied with current solution and also because I'm lazy, I do not plan to switch to StackOverflow.
>  

You're just lazy in a certain "direction". Other people are lazy in
another. They don't want to wade through threads of announcements about
contribs with feedback, and discussions about how to best improve the
Demobrowser or the framework's selection API, in order to find an answer
to a specific question. They don't even want to receive and maintain
those mails. I think those a valid versions of "laziness", too ;).

> If the support doesn't switch to StackOverflow but is maintained in parallel with mailing list, how will you manage both without "diluting" the support ?
>
> I may ask question already answered in StackOverflow but how would I know ?
> I may be interested by an answer given in StackOverflow, but how would I know ?
> It is also true in the other direction : how StackOverflow people will know about what's happen in the mailing list ?
>  

My personal expectation is that questions on SO which are already
answered on the mailing list will be answered again. This would make
sense as to build up a sufficently large knowledge base to be useful.
(In the simplest case you might just start by including a link to the
nabble post).

The same basically applies to questions on the ML which are already
answered on SO: You respond with a link to the SO answer. In the long
run, I would expect more and more people turn to SO first if they have a
question, even if they then turn to the ML (for reasons given in other
posts, like searchability, ease of finding an answer etc.).

> Is there a way to automatically cross post from one to the other so everyone will be free to choose the best client to the support : email client or web browser ?
>  

Not that I'm aware of. But actually I don't see much of an issue here.
Even you have to use the browser right now, if you ask a question and
somebody responds with a link to the manual, or a nabble post. And you
sure read the qooxdoo blog :). So the browser is already in the game.
People that rely entirely on their personal email store, like you, are
rare, I would guess.

> If there is no way to do that I suggest a "big switch" pattern for all the community rather than a long step by step extinction of the mailing list.
>  

Don't forget that the mailing list is more than just Q&A. Announcements
go here, as do discussions. StackOverflow is about Q&A only.

T.



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Re: Stack Overflow

Thomas Herchenroeder
In reply to this post by Derrell Lipman

> interrupt-driven implementation is far better. If something pops up on
> my screen and smacks me in the face, I'll read it; otherwise I'm
> unlikely to. For this

But that's entirely a tools issue. There are feed readers that just as
well "smack you in the face" if new feeds arrive :).

T.

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Re: Stack Overflow

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
In reply to this post by Thomas Herchenroeder

On Jan 7, 2010, at 14:56 , thron7 wrote:

Don't forget that the mailing list is more than just Q&A. Announcements
go here, as do discussions. StackOverflow is about Q&A only.

That's exactly the point. By going to SO we will collectively loose something.
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Re: Stack Overflow

Derrell Lipman
In reply to this post by Thomas Herchenroeder
On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 08:56, thron7 <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog wrote:
> I didn't know StackOverflow.
> I have to admit I'm very conformable with email where I can dig, search, ...
>

But how do you do that? You can't possibly maintain an archive of all
list mails since you subscribed, can you?!

Actually, I do. My gmail account has every qooxdoo message (discussion list, commit message, and bugzilla change) since I started using gmail... and all prior ones are on a server locally which I could search if I needed to.
 
And if you do, what about
mails prior to your subscription? What about people that subscribed just
last week?

People have traditionally used nabble for that. It has a searchable archive of all previous posts, I think, or at least going back a pretty long way.

Derrell


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Re: Stack Overflow

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
In reply to this post by Thomas Herchenroeder

On Jan 7, 2010, at 15:00 , thron7 wrote:

>
>> interrupt-driven implementation is far better. If something pops up on
>> my screen and smacks me in the face, I'll read it; otherwise I'm
>> unlikely to. For this
>
> But that's entirely a tools issue. There are feed readers that just as
> well "smack you in the face" if new feeds arrive :).
>

Show us the added value of the change instead of trying to convince us that a good RSS tool exists.
Why should we change ? This is the question.
What will the community gain by using SO instead of mailing list ?

Also, keep in mind that you are asking people to change habits and tools, this is a big things.
That's why I suggest you to explain why SO is better.
After but only after we'll discuss tools, when everyone will agree SO is better.

Currently and from what I've seen, I'm not convinced but I'm not the only one so why not vote in few days after all arguments could have been given by everyone ?


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Re: Stack Overflow

Thomas Herchenroeder
In reply to this post by Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog


Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog wrote:

On Jan 7, 2010, at 14:56 , thron7 wrote:

Don't forget that the mailing list is more than just Q&A. Announcements
go here, as do discussions. StackOverflow is about Q&A only.

That's exactly the point. By going to SO we will collectively loose something.

But we don't loose the mailing list! It is not meant as abolishing the mailing list entirely.  It's about doing Q&A work on SO.

T.

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Re: Stack Overflow

Thomas Herchenroeder
In reply to this post by Derrell Lipman

> prior ones are on a server locally which I could search if I needed to.

That's fine for core developers. But how many people do you expect to
have that kind of infrastructure?! What about more casual users that
just want to get their job done?!

> People have traditionally used nabble for that. It has a searchable
> archive of all previous posts, I think, or at least going back a
> pretty long way.

True, but it also mirrors the issues of the mailing list as a Q&A
instrument, ie. finding the relevant answer fast.

T.

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