Qooxdoo users

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Re: Qooxdoo users

dev
Martin!

It is true that users can take initiative to promote the framework, though it is limited as the user community has been limited by the closeness of the core team. I can see some places that users of the community really speak well about qooxdoo. So they do... But I do see, but too little of the core team out there. To be stronger the community needs to be involved in a higher extent. This initiative can only be taken by the core team. As long as the core team doesn't open up the community and formerly invite community users and ask them for specific tasks, nothing will expand. Instead the community will implode even more.

I sent a proposal for change of the qx.io formatting and typos for about 2 weeks ago to make the code more homogenous. I still haven't got a final answer which gives a clear direction, probably because the code is heterogenous at least of this part, or even better been invited to come up with a new standard making it better than it is. I did get an answer saying that "we have done so far..." etc. Not an invitation like: "Wonderful initiative. Can you come up with a proposal we can discuss in the community and if the community thinks it is good changes, we change it." As long as the core team does not involve, stimulate or actively show they want help from the community, users of the community won't be as stupid as we were, on own initiative, come up with proposals... This is the key problem and the major reason why qooxdoo community doesn't grow... in contrary to many other frameworks.

I agree with William.

Stefan

> Hey,
>> So Qooxdoo team , can you let more people know about this awesome framework, which changes programming of Javascript Dramatically .
>>
>> Like , for example , it is not even features on Todomvc site , which compares the Js frameworks.
>
> Well, if that would be so easy we would have done it before. ;) But to be honest, our marketing budget is low and we always had our focus on the code instead of talking about it. Maybe thats not the best way to promote a framework but it ended up in the code base we have right now.
> On the other hand, the missing marketing (which we hear a lot) is not only up to us in the core team. Everyone can step up and write posts about qooxdoo, speak on conferences or promote the framework on other channels as well.
>
> Regards,
> Martin
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Re: Qooxdoo users

MartinWittemann
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Hey,

> It is true that users can take initiative to promote the framework, though it is limited as the user community has been limited by the closeness of the core team. I can see some places that users of the community really speak well about qooxdoo. So they do... But I do see, but too little of the core team out there. To be stronger the community needs to be involved in a higher extent. This initiative can only be taken by the core team. As long as the core team doesn't open up the community and formerly invite community users and ask them for specific tasks, nothing will expand. Instead the community will implode even more.
Sure, it is limited in some points but I don’t see that these limitation keep anyone from writing blog posts or giving talks about the framework. If someone is writing about qooxdoo, we are always open to link to that post or repost. That would be a good promotion as those posts are not opinionated.

> I sent a proposal for change of the qx.io formatting and typos for about 2 weeks ago to make the code more homogenous. I still haven't got a final answer which gives a clear direction, probably because the code is heterogenous at least of this part, or even better been invited to come up with a new standard making it better than it is. I did get an answer saying that "we have done so far..." etc. Not an invitation like: "Wonderful initiative. Can you come up with a proposal we can discuss in the community and if the community thinks it is good changes, we change it." As long as the core team does not involve, stimulate or actively show they want help from the community, users of the community won't be as stupid as we were, on own initiative, come up with proposals... This is the key problem and the major reason why qooxdoo community doesn't grow... in contrary to many other frameworks.

I still have your pull request on my todo list but I hope you understand that a pull request about coding style is not that urgent, especially in the preparation of a release. It is good to have a homogenous coding style but I have seen much worse code than the qooxdoo framework offers in most spots. So bare with me when I think that coding style is not our major problem and has to wait some time.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: Qooxdoo users

N. Schröder
Hi Martin,

> Sure, it is limited in some points but I don’t see that these limitation keep
> anyone from writing blog posts or giving talks about the framework. If someone
> is writing about qooxdoo, we are always open to link to that post or repost.
> That would be a good promotion as those posts are not opinionated.

3.5 years ago I wrote a general introduction to qooxdoo for my former employer [1]. I also sent a short note to Andreas Ecker, telling him about the text and where to find it online. However, nobody ever responded, so I got the impression that the qooxdoo team is not very keen on any kind of promotion for their great product. I never wrote anything like that again....

Regards,

Norbert

[1] https://www.agon-solutions.de/documents/68283/68494/WP-Agon_Rich-Internetentwicklung-mit-qooxdoo.pdf


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Re: Qooxdoo users

Phyo Arkar
In reply to this post by dev

On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 3:10 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Martin!
>
> It is true that users can take initiative to promote the framework, though it is limited as the user community has been limited by the closeness of the core team. I can see some places that users of the community really speak well about qooxdoo. So they do... But I do see, but too little of the core team out there. To be stronger the community needs to be involved in a higher extent. This initiative can only be taken by the core team. As long as the core team doesn't open up the community and formerly invite community users and ask them for specific tasks, nothing will expand. Instead the community will implode even more.

Stefen beat me by 3 hr. That exactly what i wanted to say. And well said.

Believe us Martin , if you promote and open to the community only good thing will happen. Qooxdoo core team will do a lot less work. What we feel about qooxdoo is , shy . Why too shy to promote this great product? 

AngularJS and AngularUI - Frigging awful piece of JS Framework , compare to qxoo alone, and they promote it like HERO of js framework to save Javascript.. But huge HUGE  community behind it , thinks nothing compares to them. I think they don't even know Qooxdoo exists. qooxdoo of 4 years ago beats it in almost everyway possible but we have like 20-30 community memebers?

BootStrap , HTML,CSS3 framework with limited set of grid layouts is taking the Single Page APP UI by strom. There are templates , boilerplate templates , just copy and paste and modify templates everywhere for BootStrap. But qooxdoo have only 3 themes and about 2? community theme. That is not even maintained.
 
Thanks a lot for this awesome software. But you guys need to let the world know and Be Proud of it.


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Re: Qooxdoo users

Phyo Arkar

On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Phyo Arkar <[hidden email]> wrote:
. There are templates , boilerplate templates

I want to mean : There are themes , boilerplate templates,  and Thousands of them . 

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Re: Qooxdoo users

woprandi
It would be maybe a good thing to have a list of "easy hacks" like LibreOffice project offers (https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Easy_Hacks)
A list of bugs/enhancements quite easy to resolve. It would be a gain time for core team to delegate some easy tasks to the community and it can attract new contributors.

2014-12-03 13:56 GMT+01:00 Phyo Arkar <[hidden email]>:

On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Phyo Arkar <[hidden email]> wrote:
. There are templates , boilerplate templates

I want to mean : There are themes , boilerplate templates,  and Thousands of them . 

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Re: Qooxdoo users

John Spackman-3
In reply to this post by MartinWittemann
Hi Martin

>> It is true that users can take initiative to promote the framework, though it is limited as the user community has been limited by the closeness of the core team. I can see some places that users of the community really speak well about qooxdoo. So they do... But I do see, but too little of the core team out there. To be stronger the community needs to be involved in a higher extent. This initiative can only be taken by the core team. As long as the core team doesn't open up the community and formerly invite community users and ask them for specific tasks, nothing will expand. Instead the community will implode even more.
> Sure, it is limited in some points but I don’t see that these limitation keep anyone from writing blog posts or giving talks about the framework. If someone is writing about qooxdoo, we are always open to link to that post or repost. That would be a good promotion as those posts are not opinionated.

It’s a fair comment that people in the community can help publicise Qooxdoo, but not everyone’s able to do it - my guess is that of any community, only a tiny fraction produce visible marketing/promotional materials because only a fraction have the skills & time to write articles as well as the outlet to post the article on.  

It’s also easy for an outsider to see the size of the community and the rate of messages on the mailing list and be put off; it seems that the only person from the core devs who posts on here regularly is you, and often only in response to specific issues.  I very much appreciate your attention, but its clear that there is a lot going on in the dev team and we see almost none of it.  For example, Qooxdoo “next” - maybe I missed something but it was a real surprise to find out about it, and that it had been around for quite some time.

It would help a lot of we could see you guys and what you’re thinking - EG if you kept your internal dev discussions on an open mailing list.  Even if we were not allowed to post to your mailing list, seeing what’s going on would make Qooxdoo seem much more alive and vibrant.  If we, the community, have opinions on what you’re doing we can talk about it on *this* mailing list without interrupting the dev’s conversation — unless of course they chose to get involved.

John

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Informations

Johan
Hi,

We would like to integrate a thin client for our application.
Qooxdoo seems to be the best solution for us.
In fact, when I am searching some information for my project, it's hard
to find directly in the mailing list.
Furthermore, i can't find any informations between 2012 and 2014 by a
simple google search.
As I think Qooxdoo didn't stop during this period, could you please tell
me what happens in it ?
It will permit us not to ask question that still have been answered !

Regards,

Johan

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Re: Qooxdoo users

dev
In reply to this post by John Spackman-3
John,

> It’s a fair comment that people in the community can help publicise Qooxdoo, but not everyone’s able to do it - my guess is that of any community, only a tiny fraction produce visible marketing/promotional materials because only a fraction have the skills & time to write articles as well as the outlet to post the article on.  

Best equipped are the core team and users in a community with a lot of projects with qooxdoo as a tool.

> It’s also easy for an outsider to see the size of the community and the rate of messages on the mailing list and be put off; it seems that the only person from the core devs who posts on here regularly is you, and often only in response to specific issues.  I very much appreciate your attention, but its clear that there is a lot going on in the dev team and we see almost none of it.  For example, Qooxdoo “next” - maybe I missed something but it was a real surprise to find out about it, and that it had been around for quite some time.

agree...;-(
I didn't know anything about it either...

> It would help a lot of we could see you guys and what you’re thinking - EG if you kept your internal dev discussions on an open mailing list.  Even if we were not allowed to post to your mailing list, seeing what’s going on would make Qooxdoo seem much more alive and vibrant.  If we, the community, have opinions on what you’re doing we can talk about it on *this* mailing list without interrupting the dev’s conversation — unless of course they chose to get involved.

Very good proposal!!!
Listen to it core team!

Stefan

> John
>
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Re: Informations

Romeo Kenfack Tsakem
In reply to this post by Johan


Hi Johan,

Of course a lot has happened between 2012 and 2014.
Here the links to the qooxdoo forum and our release notes:

http://qooxdoo.org/forum

http://qooxdoo.org/project/release_notes

I hope this will help. If not, let me know what kind of information your exactly looking for.

Regards,
Romeo



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Johan [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. Dezember 2014 11:36
An: qooxdoo Development
Betreff: [qooxdoo-devel] Informations

Hi,

We would like to integrate a thin client for our application.
Qooxdoo seems to be the best solution for us.
In fact, when I am searching some information for my project, it's hard to find directly in the mailing list.
Furthermore, i can't find any informations between 2012 and 2014 by a simple google search.
As I think Qooxdoo didn't stop during this period, could you please tell me what happens in it ?
It will permit us not to ask question that still have been answered !

Regards,

Johan

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Re: Informations

Johan
Romeo,

Thanks for this reply !
So, Google referencing doesn't work since 2012 ?
Before asking for informations, I will read this board !

Regards,

Johan


Le 04/12/2014 13:27, Romeo Kenfack Tsakem a écrit :

>
> Hi Johan,
>
> Of course a lot has happened between 2012 and 2014.
> Here the links to the qooxdoo forum and our release notes:
>
> http://qooxdoo.org/forum
>
> http://qooxdoo.org/project/release_notes
>
> I hope this will help. If not, let me know what kind of information your exactly looking for.
>
> Regards,
> Romeo
>
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Johan [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. Dezember 2014 11:36
> An: qooxdoo Development
> Betreff: [qooxdoo-devel] Informations
>
> Hi,
>
> We would like to integrate a thin client for our application.
> Qooxdoo seems to be the best solution for us.
> In fact, when I am searching some information for my project, it's hard to find directly in the mailing list.
> Furthermore, i can't find any informations between 2012 and 2014 by a simple google search.
> As I think Qooxdoo didn't stop during this period, could you please tell me what happens in it ?
> It will permit us not to ask question that still have been answered !
>
> Regards,
>
> Johan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> _______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>
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Re: Qooxdoo users

Dietrich Streifert
In reply to this post by John Spackman-3
Hi all!

Am 04.12.2014 um 09:22 schrieb John Spackman:
> I very much appreciate your attention, but its clear that there is a lot going on in the dev team and we see almost none of it.  For example, Qooxdoo “next” - maybe I missed something but it was a real surprise to find out about it, and that it had been around for quite some time.
I followed the commits regarding the next branch for a while and was
surprised to see commits and tickets which substantially seem to change
qooxdoo's capabilities, like removing the locale handling (as stated it
could nowadays simply be done on the backend side) [1][2]. As I have 2
(soon 3) qooxdoo based products out there, I'm bothered about the
direction qooxdoo may take in the futre, without any chance to discuss
the needs other community parts or I may have.

So some more "openness" would be really good. Fully agree here!

[1]
https://github.com/qooxdoo/next/commit/8db052b21c890bc65d610ab59ea793410024dea7
[2] http://bugzilla.qooxdoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8726

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Re: Qooxdoo users

MartinWittemann
Administrator
Hey,
> I followed the commits regarding the next branch for a while and was
> surprised to see commits and tickets which substantially seem to change
> qooxdoo's capabilities, like removing the locale handling (as stated it
> could nowadays simply be done on the backend side) [1][2]. As I have 2
> (soon 3) qooxdoo based products out there, I'm bothered about the
> direction qooxdoo may take in the futre, without any chance to discuss
> the needs other community parts or I may have.

We did remove those things in the next repo / branch but not for qooxdoo.
The next repo is something derived from qooxdoo but has no intention to replace it. So there should be no need to worry about any running apps you guys have out there. I though that was somehow clear with the blog post Andreas posted.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: Qooxdoo users

Dietrich Streifert
Am 04.12.2014 um 16:29 schrieb Martin Wittemann:
> We did remove those things in the next repo / branch but not for qooxdoo.
> The next repo is something derived from qooxdoo but has no intention to replace it. So there should be no need to worry about any running apps you guys have out there. I though that was somehow clear with the blog post Andreas posted.
Thank your for clarifying this Martin.

Now I've read the blog post. I may have missed a hint on the mailing
list regarding this blog post.

Regards
Dietrich


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Re: Qooxdoo users

Phyo Arkar
In reply to this post by John Spackman-3

On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 2:52 PM, John Spackman <[hidden email]> wrote:
Qooxdoo “next”

What? where can i find documentation about it. ?? What is that?

Even tho i follow qooxdoo mailing list i don't even know what it is.

DEV Teams , please atleast market your awesome project to your dear community of just 20-30 active and happy users :D . 

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Re: Qooxdoo users

MartinWittemann
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Hey,
What? where can i find documentation about it. ?? What is that?

Even tho i follow qooxdoo mailing list i don't even know what it is.
Just take a look at the recent blog post about it: http://news.qooxdoo.org/website-fundamentals-next-challenges

DEV Teams , please atleast market your awesome project to your dear community of just 20-30 active and happy users :D . 
Our common channel of spreading the news is our blog which sure will reach more than 20-30 people. ;)

Regards,
Martin

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Re: Qooxdoo users

Phyo Arkar

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Martin Wittemann <[hidden email]> wrote:

Our common channel of spreading the news is our blog which sure will reach more than 20-30 people. ;)

Thanks . Thats what we mean about reaching out to us. I know know now it exist.

We most of us qooxdoo-users are subscribed to the mailing list. As SEO of qooxdoo is not optimized, When i searched “qooxdoo next” on google , the top results only leads to the qooxdoo/next repository (not to the blog) . That’s why many , won’t even know it exists.

The former qx.Website widgets were replaced or merged with the qx.Mobile widgets, so the latter ones can now also be used on dynamic websites, even markup-based.

Interesting , I am now very curious abot followings.

  • Thats means , this can be themed using CSS? (Like Bootstrap CSS?)
  • How about Layout system , will layout systems of qooxdoo will kept there ? Templating? Can we mix with other template systems (Bootstrap Templates , Zurb Foundation) ?
  • Will it be easier to mix with other JS?

We are happy with our agile approach and the intermediate results while addressing specific challenges of the website-oriented projects. Thus we like to share this good news, well-aware that many of you won’t be able to benefit from this experimental code base any time soon.

Glad to know you guys are happy!!. let us know more so we can be happy too :)


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Re: Qooxdoo users

John Spackman-3
Hi Martin & Andreas

Interesting , I am now very curious abot followings.

  • Thats means , this can be themed using CSS? (Like Bootstrap CSS?)
  • How about Layout system , will layout systems of qooxdoo will kept there ? Templating? Can we mix with other template systems (Bootstrap Templates , Zurb Foundation) ?
  • Will it be easier to mix with other JS?

We are happy with our agile approach and the intermediate results while addressing specific challenges of the website-oriented projects. Thus we like to share this good news, well-aware that many of you won’t be able to benefit from this experimental code base any time soon.

I find Phyo’s questions above really interesting and relevant, but I can’t help thinking that if the dev team’s internal discussions were on an open mailing list we’d be much more up to speed already, without needing you guys to write a big article(s) with all the explanations, justification, example code, etc that a major new product would require.

IMHO having an open dev-only mailing list could be constructive and time saving for you, as well as stimulating for us and the project’s public face.

Regards
John



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Re: Qooxdoo users

Phyo Arkar
Yes , exactly.
For example , Rethinkdb, their whole development process is very Open , everything is on mailing list + github that i can follow every after 3 months of not reading mailing list.

If qooxdoo is that open , many good things will happen.


On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 6:00 PM, John Spackman <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Martin & Andreas

Interesting , I am now very curious abot followings.

  • Thats means , this can be themed using CSS? (Like Bootstrap CSS?)
  • How about Layout system , will layout systems of qooxdoo will kept there ? Templating? Can we mix with other template systems (Bootstrap Templates , Zurb Foundation) ?
  • Will it be easier to mix with other JS?

We are happy with our agile approach and the intermediate results while addressing specific challenges of the website-oriented projects. Thus we like to share this good news, well-aware that many of you won’t be able to benefit from this experimental code base any time soon.

I find Phyo’s questions above really interesting and relevant, but I can’t help thinking that if the dev team’s internal discussions were on an open mailing list we’d be much more up to speed already, without needing you guys to write a big article(s) with all the explanations, justification, example code, etc that a major new product would require.

IMHO having an open dev-only mailing list could be constructive and time saving for you, as well as stimulating for us and the project’s public face.

Regards
John



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Re: Qooxdoo users

Loren Schlomer-2
One thing to remember,

Most open source projects are the efforts of people spanning many miles,
countries (and possibly continents.)  Coordinating efforts over a public
mailing system is very natural.

Now, I may be entirely wrong on this, and I hope the qooxdoo guys will
correct me... but, I understand that all of the core qooxdoo team is
under one roof at the 1&1 office, communicating primarily face-to-face
and over private corporate email.  This may prove far more productive
for their work flow (which I imagine includes more than just qooxdoo
related tasks) than public mailing lists.  This is not to say they
couldn't open up their qooxdoo development efforts more, but I imagine
they would need to separate the qooxdoo project from its corporate
sponsorship of 1&1.  The decision makers at 1&1 may not be open to that
idea.

Yes, qooxdoo is an open source project with every sense of the phrase,
yes it can be forked and turned into something more what you expect an
open source project to be, but since the core qooxdoo team earns their
living developing for 1&1, the decision to make qooxdoo development
cycles more open may currently be beyond the core developers'
capabilities.

Just something to remember when forming opinions on the state of qooxdoo
development.


I'm just super glad and happy to have what we have. :)

-ls






On 2014-12-05 09:31, Phyo Arkar wrote:

> Yes , exactly.
> For example , Rethinkdb, their whole development process is very Open
> , everything is on mailing list + github that i can follow every after
> 3 months of not reading mailing list.
>
> If qooxdoo is that open , many good things will happen.
>
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 6:00 PM, John Spackman <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Martin & Andreas
>>
>> Interesting , I am now very curious abot followings.
>>
>> * Thats means , this can be themed using CSS? (Like Bootstrap
>> CSS?)
>> * How about Layout system , will layout systems of qooxdoo will
>> kept there ? Templating? Can we mix with other template systems
>> (Bootstrap Templates , Zurb Foundation) ?
>> * Will it be easier to mix with other JS?
>>
>> We are happy with our agile approach and the intermediate results
>> while addressing specific challenges of the website-oriented
>> projects. Thus we like to share this good news, well-aware that many
>> of you won’t be able to benefit from this experimental code base
>> any time soon.
>
> I find Phyo’s questions above really interesting and relevant, but I
> can’t help thinking that if the dev team’s internal discussions
> were on an open mailing list we’d be much more up to speed already,
> without needing you guys to write a big article(s) with all the
> explanations, justification, example code, etc that a major new
> product would require.
>
> IMHO having an open dev-only mailing list could be constructive and
> time saving for you, as well as stimulating for us and the project’s
> public face.
>
> Regards
> John
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
>  from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and
> Dashboards
>  with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration &
> more
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> FREE
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> [1]
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>
>
>
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> ------
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> FREE
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