New contrib website

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New contrib website

John Spackman-3
Hi,

I’m glad to see that contribs are getting some new attention with the new page, but the way we have to go about it is way over complicated.  

In order to author a contrib, I must have a fork of your contrib-catalog in my Github account, clone it to my desktop, edit the Manifest (which is largely a duplicate of the one in my contrib.’s repo), commit it, push it, and issue a pull request.  

When I want to release an update to my contrib, I have to download the Github tar ball to my contrib, checksum it, pull your catalog, edit, commit, push, issue a pull request.

Sorry, but this is a ridiculous.  There are precious few commits to contribs anyway, and this does absolutely nothing to help foster community spirit or encourage collaboration.

John




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Re: New contrib website

Richard Sternagel
Hi John,

you are right. With the contrib catalog website released, thinking about
(and adapting things) what you wrote will probably be the next task
concerning contribs. But sadly the contrib topic isn't the most
important one on our list.

We will probably drop the checksum, at least for the master/trunk
version, because that seems to be the most hassle.

Regards
Richard

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Re: New contrib website

oetiker
In reply to this post by John Spackman-3
Today John Spackman wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I¹m glad to see that contribs are getting some new attention with the new
> page, but the way we have to go about it is way over complicated.
>
> In order to author a contrib, I must have a fork of your contrib-catalog in
> my Github account, clone it to my desktop, edit the Manifest (which is
> largely a duplicate of the one in my contrib.¹s repo), commit it, push it,
> and issue a pull request.
>
> When I want to release an update to my contrib, I have to download the
> Github tar ball to my contrib, checksum it, pull your catalog, edit, commit,
> push, issue a pull request.
>
> Sorry, but this is a ridiculous.  There are precious few commits to contribs
> anyway, and this does absolutely nothing to help foster community spirit or
> encourage collaboration.
I agree it is rather complex.

OTOH, if someone were to sit down for an hour or two, I bet it
would not be too hard to come up with a script that automates the
process from the contributors point of view, without changeing any
of the underlying system.

cheers
tobi


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www.oetiker.ch [hidden email] +41 62 775 9902

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Re: New contrib website

d2
In reply to this post by John Spackman-3

+1000 compared to something like npm... Qooxdoo is definitively the best JavaScript framework with the oo model but nobody know it and that's a shame.

Le 27 mai 2014 06:35, "John Spackman-3 [via qooxdoo]" <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Hi,

I’m glad to see that contribs are getting some new attention with the new page, but the way we have to go about it is way over complicated.  

In order to author a contrib, I must have a fork of your contrib-catalog in my Github account, clone it to my desktop, edit the Manifest (which is largely a duplicate of the one in my contrib.’s repo), commit it, push it, and issue a pull request.  

When I want to release an update to my contrib, I have to download the Github tar ball to my contrib, checksum it, pull your catalog, edit, commit, push, issue a pull request.

Sorry, but this is a ridiculous.  There are precious few commits to contribs anyway, and this does absolutely nothing to help foster community spirit or encourage collaboration.

John




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Re: New contrib website

panyasan
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Re: New contrib website

John Spackman-3
In reply to this post by d2
2 or 3 years ago, Qooxdoo was thriving and increasing it’s membership but that’s all changed – the mailing list is constantly going down, contrib activity has virtually dried up, and it seems that the majority of team communication goes via private channels (at least, not via the mailing list).  

I don’t believe that people loose faith in Qooxdoo once they’ve got to grips with it, rather that projects end and we don’t get any new users.  IMHO David’s right: nobody knows about it.

What happened?

John

From: David Charbonnier <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: qooxdoo Development <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, 27 May 2014 16:27
To: qooxdoo Development <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [qooxdoo-devel] New contrib website

+1000 compared to something like npm... Qooxdoo is definitively the best JavaScript framework with the oo model but nobody know it and that's a shame.

Le 27 mai 2014 06:35, "John Spackman-3 [via qooxdoo]" <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Hi,

I’m glad to see that contribs are getting some new attention with the new page, but the way we have to go about it is way over complicated.  

In order to author a contrib, I must have a fork of your contrib-catalog in my Github account, clone it to my desktop, edit the Manifest (which is largely a duplicate of the one in my contrib.’s repo), commit it, push it, and issue a pull request.  

When I want to release an update to my contrib, I have to download the Github tar ball to my contrib, checksum it, pull your catalog, edit, commit, push, issue a pull request.

Sorry, but this is a ridiculous.  There are precious few commits to contribs anyway, and this does absolutely nothing to help foster community spirit or encourage collaboration.

John




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Re: New contrib website

Loren Schlomer
Note: I understand this probably isn't the best thread for this, but the discussion about contribs has prompted me to write the following.


I think part of it is projects wrapping up, so I would agree with you there, however I think over the last year or so, development on qooxdoo has been more focused on the Web components, which until recently was essentially only a jQuery clone/replacement - useful for staying inside the qooxdoo ecosystem, but not really useful for generating new interest from developers and adopters.

Meanwhile, the Desktop components have seemingly reached their feature completeness and no new advances are happening, relying on contribs for new controls and fancy new features.  As far as feature sets are concerned, qooxdoo falls way short of Sencha or Isomorphic's SmartClient.  However, comparatively, developing for either of those toolkits is about as fun as a root canal.  The qooxdoo type system is still the bread and butter.  That said, selling the type system as opposed to having Pivot tables and graphs and charts and [insert feature X here] to a professional development team interested in giving their user base a fuller, richer experience is a pretty tall order.

And because the qooxdoo type system is its #1 feature and selling point, I think it stands on a very fragile, precarious pedestal right now.  With arguments.callee being deprecated from ECMA, some changes are necessarily going to happen (eventually...)

Added to this, using the qooxdoo type system as a non-gui development platform is becoming less and less important too, with Typescript gaining popularity and ECMA6 right around the corner.  From an adoption viewpoint, this may be a hurdle or an opportunity for qooxdoo.

I know I will continue to be a qooxdoo advocate at every opportunity, but it feels like the rich internet is moving forward and is beginning to leave qooxdoo behind.


On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 8:47 AM, John Spackman <[hidden email]> wrote:
2 or 3 years ago, Qooxdoo was thriving and increasing it’s membership but that’s all changed – the mailing list is constantly going down, contrib activity has virtually dried up, and it seems that the majority of team communication goes via private channels (at least, not via the mailing list).  

I don’t believe that people loose faith in Qooxdoo once they’ve got to grips with it, rather that projects end and we don’t get any new users.  IMHO David’s right: nobody knows about it.

What happened?

John

From: David Charbonnier <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: qooxdoo Development <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, 27 May 2014 16:27
To: qooxdoo Development <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [qooxdoo-devel] New contrib website

+1000 compared to something like npm... Qooxdoo is definitively the best JavaScript framework with the oo model but nobody know it and that's a shame.

Le 27 mai 2014 06:35, "John Spackman-3 [via qooxdoo]" <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Hi,

I’m glad to see that contribs are getting some new attention with the new page, but the way we have to go about it is way over complicated.  

In order to author a contrib, I must have a fork of your contrib-catalog in my Github account, clone it to my desktop, edit the Manifest (which is largely a duplicate of the one in my contrib.’s repo), commit it, push it, and issue a pull request.  

When I want to release an update to my contrib, I have to download the Github tar ball to my contrib, checksum it, pull your catalog, edit, commit, push, issue a pull request.

Sorry, but this is a ridiculous.  There are precious few commits to contribs anyway, and this does absolutely nothing to help foster community spirit or encourage collaboration.

John




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Re: New contrib website

panyasan
This is an interesting and important discussion!

Because of the points you raised, I think the contrib infrastructure is so critically important. I know that since qooxdoo has a corporate sponsor, the dev team is not totally free to chose its priorities, but the value of a library depends on its ecosystem, and the growth of the ecosystem depends on how easy it is to contribute (see npm).
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Re: New contrib website

Petr Kobalíček
Guys,

From my perspective - I think that what is becoming a problem as well is its monolithic architecture. Qooxdoo is not modular, every time I use it I feel like working 15 years back on some C++ project. JS is a very dynamic language and I think it should be used that way also in Qooxdoo (split the core, components, make it modular and just minify).

Second problem is that a lot of contributions are wrapping third party code into a "qooxdoo way". This is ridiculous - if there is a good third party library one should be able to use it even without rewriting the whole API into qooxdoo style.

There are another things as well, look at Angular for example how easy databinding can be.

My 2 cents;)
Petr

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:50 AM, panyasan <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is an interesting and important discussion!

Because of the points you raised, I think the contrib infrastructure is so
critically important. I know that since qooxdoo has a corporate sponsor, the
dev team is not totally free to chose its priorities, but the value of a
library depends on its ecosystem, and the growth of the ecosystem depends on
how easy it is to contribute (see npm).




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Re: New contrib website

John Spackman-3
In reply to this post by Loren Schlomer
Hi Loren

I don’t really see much of the website components, probably this is not helped by the fact that I’m not actively trying to use them but I can’t see  anything exciting about them, especially when compared to other libraries; Mobile is a different story and a lot a work has happened there and I’m looking forward to when I need to use it.  I still use jQuery (in non-Desktop work) because the libraries and widgets are so much better; ironically I still use a cut down version of the Qooxdoo type system I wrote years ago.

With each passing year there seems to be less and less involvement of the community in Qooxdoo – it feels less of an OS project sponsored by 1&1, more an internal project at 1&1 that allows the community to get a copy of the code.  Partly that’s due to a shrinking community and ever quieter mailing list (I’m guessing that a lot of team communication is not public), but whatever the reason it’s not good.

I can’t see many people evaluating Qooxdoo against comparable libraries and seeing a shrinking membership as anything but a huge risk (or career suicide).

John

From: Loren Schlomer <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: qooxdoo Development <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, 27 May 2014 18:51
To: qooxdoo Development <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [qooxdoo-devel] New contrib website

Note: I understand this probably isn't the best thread for this, but the discussion about contribs has prompted me to write the following.


I think part of it is projects wrapping up, so I would agree with you there, however I think over the last year or so, development on qooxdoo has been more focused on the Web components, which until recently was essentially only a jQuery clone/replacement - useful for staying inside the qooxdoo ecosystem, but not really useful for generating new interest from developers and adopters.

Meanwhile, the Desktop components have seemingly reached their feature completeness and no new advances are happening, relying on contribs for new controls and fancy new features.  As far as feature sets are concerned, qooxdoo falls way short of Sencha or Isomorphic's SmartClient.  However, comparatively, developing for either of those toolkits is about as fun as a root canal.  The qooxdoo type system is still the bread and butter.  That said, selling the type system as opposed to having Pivot tables and graphs and charts and [insert feature X here] to a professional development team interested in giving their user base a fuller, richer experience is a pretty tall order.

And because the qooxdoo type system is its #1 feature and selling point, I think it stands on a very fragile, precarious pedestal right now.  With arguments.callee being deprecated from ECMA, some changes are necessarily going to happen (eventually...)

Added to this, using the qooxdoo type system as a non-gui development platform is becoming less and less important too, with Typescript gaining popularity and ECMA6 right around the corner.  From an adoption viewpoint, this may be a hurdle or an opportunity for qooxdoo.

I know I will continue to be a qooxdoo advocate at every opportunity, but it feels like the rich internet is moving forward and is beginning to leave qooxdoo behind.


On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 8:47 AM, John Spackman <[hidden email]> wrote:
2 or 3 years ago, Qooxdoo was thriving and increasing it’s membership but that’s all changed – the mailing list is constantly going down, contrib activity has virtually dried up, and it seems that the majority of team communication goes via private channels (at least, not via the mailing list).  

I don’t believe that people loose faith in Qooxdoo once they’ve got to grips with it, rather that projects end and we don’t get any new users.  IMHO David’s right: nobody knows about it.

What happened?

John

From: David Charbonnier <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: qooxdoo Development <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, 27 May 2014 16:27
To: qooxdoo Development <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [qooxdoo-devel] New contrib website

+1000 compared to something like npm... Qooxdoo is definitively the best JavaScript framework with the oo model but nobody know it and that's a shame.

Le 27 mai 2014 06:35, "John Spackman-3 [via qooxdoo]" <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Hi,

I’m glad to see that contribs are getting some new attention with the new page, but the way we have to go about it is way over complicated.  

In order to author a contrib, I must have a fork of your contrib-catalog in my Github account, clone it to my desktop, edit the Manifest (which is largely a duplicate of the one in my contrib.’s repo), commit it, push it, and issue a pull request.  

When I want to release an update to my contrib, I have to download the Github tar ball to my contrib, checksum it, pull your catalog, edit, commit, push, issue a pull request.

Sorry, but this is a ridiculous.  There are precious few commits to contribs anyway, and this does absolutely nothing to help foster community spirit or encourage collaboration.

John




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Re: New contrib website

John Spackman-3
In reply to this post by Petr Kobalíček
Hi Petr

I don’t think it needs to be split – that’s what the generator is for, to assemble just the bits that are needed by your app.   There is a fairly large core of classes which are always needed, and maybe something could be done to reduce those dependencies, but any such optimisation would only affect small applications.

If anything, it is debatable whether there should be a distinction between Desktop/Server/Mobile because the generator can put together just what your app needs.

Qooxdoo is not particularly light weight; AIUI that’s what the ”website” version was created to do, not that I’ve used it.  However Qooxdoo is suited to building large apps (one of my apps is 146,000 lines of unminified JS) and that’s a different use case.

I don’t think there is an inherent issue with wrapping existing, well written libraries in a Qooxdoo-compatible class (e.g. a rich text editor, jqPlot, etc), but there is little motivation in making a contrib of anything if there isn’t anyone to use it.

That’s a circular argument of course: shrinking user base == less users want to contrib == product gets dated == less users want to start using it == etc etc.

John

From: Petr Kobalíček <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: qooxdoo Development <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, 28 May 2014 14:40
To: qooxdoo Development <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [qooxdoo-devel] New contrib website

Guys,

From my perspective - I think that what is becoming a problem as well is its monolithic architecture. Qooxdoo is not modular, every time I use it I feel like working 15 years back on some C++ project. JS is a very dynamic language and I think it should be used that way also in Qooxdoo (split the core, components, make it modular and just minify).

Second problem is that a lot of contributions are wrapping third party code into a "qooxdoo way". This is ridiculous - if there is a good third party library one should be able to use it even without rewriting the whole API into qooxdoo style.

There are another things as well, look at Angular for example how easy databinding can be.

My 2 cents;)
Petr

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:50 AM, panyasan <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is an interesting and important discussion!

Because of the points you raised, I think the contrib infrastructure is so
critically important. I know that since qooxdoo has a corporate sponsor, the
dev team is not totally free to chose its priorities, but the value of a
library depends on its ecosystem, and the growth of the ecosystem depends on
how easy it is to contribute (see npm).




--
View this message in context: http://qooxdoo.678.n2.nabble.com/New-contrib-website-tp7585740p7585750.html
Sent from the qooxdoo mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: New contrib website

thron7
Let me throw in one aspect concerning the new contrib system:

It maintained the original idea of shiftig load from *using* a
contribution to *maintaining* that contribution. The unbeloved hash
sum over a contribution has the sole purpose to allow for *automatic
freshness checks*. Downloading a contribution is part of the usual
build step when developing, done by the Generator behind the scenes,
not a separate step. That's it.

This differs from all other popular systems (including NPM!), which
require the user of a contribution to separately take care of
downloading/installing it, besides using it in builds (think of 'npm
install' vs. 'grunt build'). So you could say that the qooxdoo
approach is more comfortable for the contribution users, which seemed
like a good idea at one point. But maybe it doesn't have to be that
way.

Maybe the right balance between authors and users of contributions
would be to put a little more load on the users by requiring an
explicit download step for the contributions. This would make the
contrib infrastructure much simpler, and would give the users of it
more control when a particular contrib they are using is being updated
on their local system. It would also require them to actively check
for updates for any of them. But as this pattern is so common
nowadays, maybe nobody would feel offended.

The discussion in this thread was largely a contrib authors'
discussion, and I haven't seen contrib users raise their voices. Maybe
it's about time to shift a little load back to the users and separate
downloading contribs into an independent and explicit Generator step.

My 2c,
T.

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 6:49 PM, John Spackman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Petr
>
> I don’t think it needs to be split – that’s what the generator is for, to
> assemble just the bits that are needed by your app.   There is a fairly
> large core of classes which are always needed, and maybe something could be
> done to reduce those dependencies, but any such optimisation would only
> affect small applications.
>
> If anything, it is debatable whether there should be a distinction between
> Desktop/Server/Mobile because the generator can put together just what your
> app needs.
>
> Qooxdoo is not particularly light weight; AIUI that’s what the ”website”
> version was created to do, not that I’ve used it.  However Qooxdoo is suited
> to building large apps (one of my apps is 146,000 lines of unminified JS)
> and that’s a different use case.
>
> I don’t think there is an inherent issue with wrapping existing, well
> written libraries in a Qooxdoo-compatible class (e.g. a rich text editor,
> jqPlot, etc), but there is little motivation in making a contrib of anything
> if there isn’t anyone to use it.
>
> That’s a circular argument of course: shrinking user base == less users want
> to contrib == product gets dated == less users want to start using it == etc
> etc.
>
> John
>
> From: Petr Kobalíček <[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: qooxdoo Development <[hidden email]>
> Date: Wednesday, 28 May 2014 14:40
>
> To: qooxdoo Development <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [qooxdoo-devel] New contrib website
>
> Guys,
>
> From my perspective - I think that what is becoming a problem as well is its
> monolithic architecture. Qooxdoo is not modular, every time I use it I feel
> like working 15 years back on some C++ project. JS is a very dynamic
> language and I think it should be used that way also in Qooxdoo (split the
> core, components, make it modular and just minify).
>
> Second problem is that a lot of contributions are wrapping third party code
> into a "qooxdoo way". This is ridiculous - if there is a good third party
> library one should be able to use it even without rewriting the whole API
> into qooxdoo style.
>
> There are another things as well, look at Angular for example how easy
> databinding can be.
>
> My 2 cents;)
> Petr
>
> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:50 AM, panyasan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> This is an interesting and important discussion!
>>
>> Because of the points you raised, I think the contrib infrastructure is so
>> critically important. I know that since qooxdoo has a corporate sponsor,
>> the
>> dev team is not totally free to chose its priorities, but the value of a
>> library depends on its ecosystem, and the growth of the ecosystem depends
>> on
>> how easy it is to contribute (see npm).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://qooxdoo.678.n2.nabble.com/New-contrib-website-tp7585740p7585750.html
>> Sent from the qooxdoo mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Time is money. Stop wasting it! Get your web API in 5 minutes.
>> www.restlet.com/download
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/restlet
>> _______________________________________________
>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Time is money. Stop wasting it! Get your web API in 5 minutes.
> www.restlet.com/download
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/restlet_______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Time is money. Stop wasting it! Get your web API in 5 minutes.
> www.restlet.com/download
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/restlet
> _______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>

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Re: New contrib website

thron7
> contribution to *maintaining* that contribution. The unbeloved hash
> sum over a contribution has the sole purpose to allow for *automatic
> freshness checks*.

(I have to conede it has also the advantage of verifying the integrity
of the downloaded contribution archive.)

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Re: New contrib website

d2
In reply to this post by thron7


Le 31 mai 2014 02:45, "thron7" <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> Let me throw in one aspect concerning the new contrib system:
>
> It maintained the original idea of shiftig load from *using* a
> contribution to *maintaining* that contribution. The unbeloved hash
> sum over a contribution has the sole purpose to allow for *automatic
> freshness checks*. Downloading a contribution is part of the usual
> build step when developing, done by the Generator behind the scenes,
> not a separate step. That's it.
>
> This differs from all other popular systems (including NPM!), which
> require the user of a contribution to separately take care of
> downloading/installing it, besides using it in builds (think of 'npm
> install' vs. 'grunt build'). So you could say that the qooxdoo
> approach is more comfortable for the contribution users, which seemed
> like a good idea at one point. But maybe it doesn't have to be that
> way.
>
> Maybe the right balance between authors and users of contributions
> would be to put a little more load on the users by requiring an
> explicit download step for the contributions. This would make the
> contrib infrastructure much simpler, and would give the users of it
> more control when a particular contrib they are using is being updated
> on their local system. It would also require them to actively check
> for updates for any of them. But as this pattern is so common
> nowadays, maybe nobody would feel offended.
>
> The discussion in this thread was largely a contrib authors'
> discussion, and I haven't seen contrib users raise their voices.

I'm not a contribution author and not really a contribution user because there is no real contribution on qooxdoo.
On npm I have 3 or 4 packages and I've contributed to ~20 contribution providing patches or but reports.
If I contribute more on npm it's because I understand how to contribute, it's easy. On qooxdoo I have a genera idea of how to write a contribution (because there is fee examples) and no idea of the process.
In my idea of the process I think there is an approval (even if it's just an action and not a judgement) of the contribution by the qooxdoo team it takes me more time and I can't use the contribution immediately, there is no direct benefit for me. On npm I contribute because I need this package and it's easier for me to publish this package than to copy/sync this package to all my projects. On open source ecosystem there is no user/author. An author is a user and a user become author. You are an author when you provide feedback. Everybody on this list is a qooxdoo contributor.

Qooxdoo is gonna die and even if it's not a priority for one&one to have a community it's very interesting for one&one that qooxdoo don't become a burthen. You are *excellents* computer engineers you've made this library leading by far in terms of computer science many years ago but you never had any plan for creating a community and you never had a designer that could make people desire using this library. Look at extjs the first well known version was very bad but the design was so great that everybody wanted to use it. Look at node it looks so easy to create a project (and I can tell you it's far from the reality when you create medium size projects) that you instantly have a giant community. Look at npm everybody can add a contribution in 5 minutes and you have 76000 contribution (~10 with a good quality ;)

Maybe it's too late, I was one of the qooxdoo supporter (and I don't think we are many) and I will probably not use qooxdoo anymore, that make me sad.




Maybe
> it's about time to shift a little load back to the users and separate
> downloading contribs into an independent and explicit Generator step.
>
> My 2c,
> T.
>
> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 6:49 PM, John Spackman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi Petr
> >
> > I don’t think it needs to be split – that’s what the generator is for, to
> > assemble just the bits that are needed by your app.   There is a fairly
> > large core of classes which are always needed, and maybe something could be
> > done to reduce those dependencies, but any such optimisation would only
> > affect small applications.
> >
> > If anything, it is debatable whether there should be a distinction between
> > Desktop/Server/Mobile because the generator can put together just what your
> > app needs.
> >
> > Qooxdoo is not particularly light weight; AIUI that’s what the ”website”
> > version was created to do, not that I’ve used it.  However Qooxdoo is suited
> > to building large apps (one of my apps is 146,000 lines of unminified JS)
> > and that’s a different use case.
> >
> > I don’t think there is an inherent issue with wrapping existing, well
> > written libraries in a Qooxdoo-compatible class (e.g. a rich text editor,
> > jqPlot, etc), but there is little motivation in making a contrib of anything
> > if there isn’t anyone to use it.
> >
> > That’s a circular argument of course: shrinking user base == less users want
> > to contrib == product gets dated == less users want to start using it == etc
> > etc.
> >
> > John
> >
> > From: Petr Kobalíček <[hidden email]>
> > Reply-To: qooxdoo Development <[hidden email]>
> > Date: Wednesday, 28 May 2014 14:40
> >
> > To: qooxdoo Development <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: Re: [qooxdoo-devel] New contrib website
> >
> > Guys,
> >
> > From my perspective - I think that what is becoming a problem as well is its
> > monolithic architecture. Qooxdoo is not modular, every time I use it I feel
> > like working 15 years back on some C++ project. JS is a very dynamic
> > language and I think it should be used that way also in Qooxdoo (split the
> > core, components, make it modular and just minify).
> >
> > Second problem is that a lot of contributions are wrapping third party code
> > into a "qooxdoo way". This is ridiculous - if there is a good third party
> > library one should be able to use it even without rewriting the whole API
> > into qooxdoo style.
> >
> > There are another things as well, look at Angular for example how easy
> > databinding can be.
> >
> > My 2 cents;)
> > Petr
> >
> > On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:50 AM, panyasan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> This is an interesting and important discussion!
> >>
> >> Because of the points you raised, I think the contrib infrastructure is so
> >> critically important. I know that since qooxdoo has a corporate sponsor,
> >> the
> >> dev team is not totally free to chose its priorities, but the value of a
> >> library depends on its ecosystem, and the growth of the ecosystem depends
> >> on
> >> how easy it is to contribute (see npm).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> View this message in context:
> >> http://qooxdoo.678.n2.nabble.com/New-contrib-website-tp7585740p7585750.html
> >> Sent from the qooxdoo mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Time is money. Stop wasting it! Get your web API in 5 minutes.
> >> www.restlet.com/download
> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/restlet
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Time is money. Stop wasting it! Get your web API in 5 minutes.
> > www.restlet.com/download
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/restlet_______________________________________________
> > qooxdoo-devel mailing list [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Time is money. Stop wasting it! Get your web API in 5 minutes.
> > www.restlet.com/download
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/restlet
> > _______________________________________________
> > qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Time is money. Stop wasting it! Get your web API in 5 minutes.
> www.restlet.com/download
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/restlet
> _______________________________________________
> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel


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Re: New contrib website

John Spackman-3
In reply to this post by thron7
On 31/05/2014 10:44, "thron7" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Let me throw in one aspect concerning the new contrib system:
>
>It maintained the original idea of shiftig load from *using* a
>contribution to *maintaining* that contribution. The unbeloved hash
>sum over a contribution has the sole purpose to allow for *automatic
>freshness checks*.

The other side of that coin is that automatic upgrades can cause their own
problems - if making a minor change and simply running the generator
forced an upgrade to the latest version of every contrib that could
introduce incompatibilities, making it hard to maintain older projects.


>The discussion in this thread was largely a contrib authors'
>discussion, and I haven't seen contrib users raise their voices.

I¹d be interested to hear from contrib users too - if only to get a sense
of how many there are. This thread has turned into a question of whether
there¹s anybody out there.

Contrib authors are a good measure of the community though - you only have
to see the commit logs on SF to see how little activity there has been
there in the last few years (obviously, non SF repos not included).  As
David Charbonnier said, users in an active community will reengage and
contribute, so where are the contributions if there are contrib users?


>From: David Charbonnier <[hidden email]>
>Qooxdoo is gonna die and even if it's not a priority for one&one to have
>a community it's very interesting for one&one that qooxdoo don't become a
>burthen. You are *excellents* computer engineers you've made this library
>leading by far in terms of computer science many years ago but you never
>had any plan for creating a community and you never had a designer that
>could make people desire using this library. Look at extjs the first well
>known version was very bad but the design was so great that everybody
>wanted to use it. Look at node it looks so easy to create a project (and
>I can tell you it's far from the reality when you create medium size
>projects) that you instantly have a giant community. Look at npm
>everybody can add a contribution in 5 minutes and you have 76000
>contribution (~10 with a good quality ;)
>Maybe it's too late, I was one of the qooxdoo supporter (and I don't
>think we are many) and I will probably not use qooxdoo anymore, that make
>me sad.
>

I¹m quite worried that this is the case - the project is clearly not
engaging new users and that¹s to the detriment of all, whether 1&1 or the
rest of us.


How come the user base is shrinking at a time when web based development &
deployment is on the rise?  Building large scale web apps has always been
Qooxdoo¹s great ability, a pretty fantastic achievement that¹s being
squandered away.

John




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Re: New contrib website

thron7
> How come the user base is shrinking at a time when web based development &
> deployment is on the rise?  Building large scale web apps has always been
> Qooxdoo¹s great ability, a pretty fantastic achievement that¹s being
> squandered away.

I think here are two differen aspects at work:

Popularity of qooxdoo

I still don't understand why some technology "wins big" while another
doesn't (JS or otherwise), but technical merrits are not among the
main drivers. But although I understand this worries some of the
qooxdoo community, I don't think it is really a problem for qooxdoo
itself. qooxdoo is not going "to die" over it (which I think is a good
thing, for everybody investing in it). I think John's characterization
was to the point when he wrote qooxdoo was more an "internal project
at 1&1 that allows the community to get a copy of the code". What I
think needs more consideration is the other aspect.

Usefulness of qooxdoo

qooxdoo always tried to be ultimately useful for JS developers (being
popular or not), and I think so far it succeeded to a very large
degree . But as qooxdoo is not taking over the world it has to adapt
to the bigger movements in the industry, in order to maintain this
high degree of usabilty.

The project started to move the tool chain to Grunt, to take advantage
of the infrastructure being available there, which I think was an
excellent start.

Next, it might be necessary to make it available over NPM, and not
only the OO library but all parts, the class library, the tool chain,
the demos, the stand-alone libraries, you name it.

The biggest challenge here would be dependency management. qooxdoo
might need to adapt to the 'require' way of giving dependencies
explicitly, rather than inferring them from the code. This could be
the biggest hurdle in reaching the necessary interoperability with NPM
modules that know nothing about qooxdoo.

Finally, though it may still be a good stretch ahead, the new 'class'
keyword of JS challenges qooxdoo's OO system. In the end, I think
qooxdoo will have to yield to the new built-in, as I don't think
people will want to use a factory-based class system over a native
one.

So you may ask, given all those changes what will survive of qooxdoo?
- Here's my take: The excellent class code, the rich set of widgets
across desktop/website/mobile applications, the tool chain that
supports large and industrial-strength application development.

"May all your contributions become NPM modules." :-)

T.

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Re: New contrib website

Petr Kobalíček
I think that splitting qooxdoo into several components (modules) and putting them to bower would be a good start to see if this modular approach is possible.

But this would require a huge cleanup and possible removal of unneeded code from qooxdoo.

And guys, just forget about Generator and the whole dependency analysis. This was good 10 years ago, today nobody really cares. It's a showstopper; you have to learn another toolchain to use qooxdoo - new syntax, need to create another package.json-like file. It's simply annoying. Imagine this required by jQuery, nobody would have ever used it.

My 2 cents.

On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 12:37 PM, thron7 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> How come the user base is shrinking at a time when web based development &
> deployment is on the rise?  Building large scale web apps has always been
> Qooxdoo¹s great ability, a pretty fantastic achievement that¹s being
> squandered away.

I think here are two differen aspects at work:

Popularity of qooxdoo

I still don't understand why some technology "wins big" while another
doesn't (JS or otherwise), but technical merrits are not among the
main drivers. But although I understand this worries some of the
qooxdoo community, I don't think it is really a problem for qooxdoo
itself. qooxdoo is not going "to die" over it (which I think is a good
thing, for everybody investing in it). I think John's characterization
was to the point when he wrote qooxdoo was more an "internal project
at 1&1 that allows the community to get a copy of the code". What I
think needs more consideration is the other aspect.

Usefulness of qooxdoo

qooxdoo always tried to be ultimately useful for JS developers (being
popular or not), and I think so far it succeeded to a very large
degree . But as qooxdoo is not taking over the world it has to adapt
to the bigger movements in the industry, in order to maintain this
high degree of usabilty.

The project started to move the tool chain to Grunt, to take advantage
of the infrastructure being available there, which I think was an
excellent start.

Next, it might be necessary to make it available over NPM, and not
only the OO library but all parts, the class library, the tool chain,
the demos, the stand-alone libraries, you name it.

The biggest challenge here would be dependency management. qooxdoo
might need to adapt to the 'require' way of giving dependencies
explicitly, rather than inferring them from the code. This could be
the biggest hurdle in reaching the necessary interoperability with NPM
modules that know nothing about qooxdoo.

Finally, though it may still be a good stretch ahead, the new 'class'
keyword of JS challenges qooxdoo's OO system. In the end, I think
qooxdoo will have to yield to the new built-in, as I don't think
people will want to use a factory-based class system over a native
one.

So you may ask, given all those changes what will survive of qooxdoo?
- Here's my take: The excellent class code, the rich set of widgets
across desktop/website/mobile applications, the tool chain that
supports large and industrial-strength application development.

"May all your contributions become NPM modules." :-)

T.

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qooxdoo continues to be the best for me (Re: New contrib website)

oetiker
So while everyone is having wonderful ideas ... I think I also have
to put in my 2c.  I realy like it that qooxdoo has a solid OO
architecture and a generator takeing care of assembling an
optimized javascript file for my application.

after all, having an optimized app to download for the users is
very efficient and exactly what other frameworks also try todo but
in much less elegant ways since there is no automatic dependency
tracking.

Obviously I would love for tons of new high quality widgets to be
created every month.  But I guess I am only to blame myself for not
doing it.  After all, the infastructure for extensibility in the
framework is excellent.

With all these great things in place, I fear the main problem for
the adoption of qooxdoo is not technology but simply marketing.

People on the official qooxdoo mailinglist, pointing out all the
short comings and complaining about their precieved problems are
probably also not the best thing that can happen in this respect.

I for my part continue to be very happy with the qooxdoo
programming environment and have yet to encounter a problem that
does not have an elegant solution.

I also appreciate that the framework is kept up with new browser
technologies as they become mainstream.

cheers
tobi


--
Tobi Oetiker, OETIKER+PARTNER AG, Aarweg 15 CH-4600 Olten, Switzerland
www.oetiker.ch [hidden email] +41 62 775 9902


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Re: New contrib website

panyasan
In reply to this post by Petr Kobalíček
I also do not think that the generator is the problem - on the contrary: the ability to generate highly optimzied builds is, as far as I can see, unrivaled in the framework landscape (think of source-hybrid or browser-targeted builds).

I agree with Thomas that the main challenge will be to adapt qooxdoo to the possibilities ECMAScript6 (factory->class system, also: databinding->proxies), as people will increasingly demand "native" solutions instead of framework inventions (no matter how ingenious). Also, qooxdoo will have to adapt to the ways people are used to work which will eventually converge around the NodeJs model.

That is why I think that the contributions (the original subject of this thread) should be NPM modules, with some opt-out solution that let you integrate non-npm code.
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Re: New contrib website

John Spackman-3
As others have said, it¹s a question of marketing not technical quality;
yes there are things that people would like to see but that¹s true of any
framework - I bet the wish list for ExtJS and other projects have things
on it that Qooxdoo already does very well.  The upcoming challenges (e.g.
native classes etc) are just one more step in the chain that can be worked
out (think about the upgrades between early 0.x versions)

Taking Tobias¹ point, I don¹t want to be negative about Qooxdoo - it IS a
great product and very much worth the investment, the point is that there
is so much more for any project when it has a growing and vibrant
community because that growth is driven by end user expectations and
demands.  If a newcomer believes that they can please their end users (and
their bosses) with a Qooxdoo based product, the community will grow, and
those developers will feed back to the project which in turns makes the
project better and devs more likely to join the community.

What surprises me is that this is, surely, good for the project internally
at 1&1 too?  OK so at the moment the team have a corporate mandate and
budget to keep going, but they have end users too who have high
expectations that push hard into IT and users will eventually get what
they want.  It wasn¹t that long ago that many corporate IT depts would
refuse to upgrade beyond IE6 because of ³compatibility problems², now it¹s
not unusual when they have to support different phones, tablets, laptops
etc.

John





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