Do pre-releases before the official release

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Do pre-releases before the official release

Derrell Lipman
I know i'm going to be ignored on this, but I feel sufficiently strongly about it that I really think it needs to be said.

There have been a massive number of changes to trunk since the last pre-release. The version 1.0 release is likely (we all hope!) to be picked up by the press and tried and tested by many who have not used it. Although it's possible that nothing is broken, I think it is really, really dangerous to release this code as version 1.0 without doing pre-releases which are tested by many people first.

I propose that Wednesday's planned release date be changed to a pre-release. I believe that Europe pretty much shuts down for a number of weeks at the end of the year. That would allow a month or so of testing and critical-bug fixing (only!), followed by at least one more pre-release with those bugs fixed, so that the actual 1.0 release in mid-January is much more properly field-tested. I understand the desire to meet the originally-publicized schedule, but this is the reputation of qooxdoo on the line. A 1.0 release is not the time to rush out a release that has had substantial change and not a lot of external testing.

Derrell


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Re: Do pre-releases before the official release

zaucker
I don't know enough about the current state of trunk and its changes to
judge how "critical" this concern is.

As a Qooxdoo user I can say, however, that I'd be more than happy to
wait a bit longer for a 1.0 release (as I am fortunate enough to decide
for myself to use trunk, I have all the latest features/fixes available
to me and my customers anyway).

Cheers,
Fritz

On 12/14/09 16:16, Derrell Lipman wrote:

> I know i'm going to be ignored on this, but I feel sufficiently strongly
> about it that I really think it needs to be said.
>
> There have been a massive number of changes to trunk since the last
> pre-release. The version 1.0 release is likely (we all hope!) to be picked
> up by the press and tried and tested by many who have not used it. Although
> it's possible that nothing is broken, I think it is really, really dangerous
> to release this code as version 1.0 without doing pre-releases which are
> tested by many people first.
>
> I propose that Wednesday's planned release date be changed to a pre-release.
> I believe that Europe pretty much shuts down for a number of weeks at the
> end of the year. That would allow a month or so of testing and critical-bug
> fixing (only!), followed by at least one more pre-release with those bugs
> fixed, so that the actual 1.0 release in mid-January is much more properly
> field-tested. I understand the desire to meet the originally-publicized
> schedule, but this is the reputation of qooxdoo on the line. A 1.0 release
> is not the time to rush out a release that has had substantial change and
> not a lot of external testing.
>
> Derrell

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Fritz Zaucker                        +41 62 775 9900 (switch board)
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Re: Do pre-releases before the official release

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
In reply to this post by Derrell Lipman
I don't know the status of the trunk since we are in a delivery phase for a customer, so its "code freeze" here, but I agree, this is a good idea.

On Dec 14, 2009, at 16:16 , Derrell Lipman wrote:

> I know i'm going to be ignored on this, but I feel sufficiently strongly about it that I really think it needs to be said.
>
> There have been a massive number of changes to trunk since the last pre-release. The version 1.0 release is likely (we all hope!) to be picked up by the press and tried and tested by many who have not used it. Although it's possible that nothing is broken, I think it is really, really dangerous to release this code as version 1.0 without doing pre-releases which are tested by many people first.
>
> I propose that Wednesday's planned release date be changed to a pre-release. I believe that Europe pretty much shuts down for a number of weeks at the end of the year. That would allow a month or so of testing and critical-bug fixing (only!), followed by at least one more pre-release with those bugs fixed, so that the actual 1.0 release in mid-January is much more properly field-tested. I understand the desire to meet the originally-publicized schedule, but this is the reputation of qooxdoo on the line. A 1.0 release is not the time to rush out a release that has had substantial change and not a lot of external testing.
>
> Derrell
>
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Re: Do pre-releases before the official release

Andreas Ecker
In reply to this post by Derrell Lipman
Hi Derrell,

thanks for sharing your thoughts on the final ramp down for qooxdoo 1.0.
We both talked about that recently as well, so I know you have some
mixed feelings about getting release 1.0 out the door now.

qooxdoo has gotten a huge amount of testing, bug fixing, polishing and
field testing over the last months (if not the entire year). Besides the
full-time core devs many committers and users have contributed to this
process, and there has been a clear stabilization and convergence. The
framework in all of its main aspects now is sufficiently mature and
well-tested, ready for an 1.0 release, and we're going to ship it as
planned and communicated.

There always is the feeling of yet another round of testing, yet another
round of bug fixes, etc. It basically applies to any release, clearly
for "the" 1.0. That is quite understandable, and we always pay a lot of
attention to this ourselves.

Given the record and quality of qooxdoo development, feedback and
releases you shouldn't really need to worry when it comes to 1.0. It
will be an important milestone, but not the end of development, rather a
strong foundation for the challenges ahead. It will continue, there'll
be maintenance releases, a 1.1, a 1.5, a 2.0 at sometime in the future.
Over the years (almost 5 years now) many users even argued for a much
earlier "1.0" naming, mostly due to qooxdoo's maturity. Maybe we should
be at qooxdoo 4.0 now rather than 1.0? We have always been reluctant,
worked hard and in accordance with the public roadmap and are confident
for the upcoming release.

There have been many opportunities and requests to align with the
framework progress, e.g. releases like 0.8.3 or 1.0-beta1, also
involving users to working against SVN trunk with intense and fast
collaboration via bugzilla and mailing list. During the final phase we
keep updating the following snapshots frequently, inform the mailing
list and ask everyone for their ongoing testing:

* The latest demo apps have been put online for testing (like every
Friday) at http://demo.qooxdoo.org/devel/

* Also, the latest SDK (r21165) is available for your testing at:
http://demo.qooxdoo.org/snapshot/qooxdoo-1.0-sdk-r21165.zip

Please note: The code base has been switch internally to the 1.0 version
name already to allow for an end-to-end SDK testing. This is NOT yet the
final 1.0!

Thanks for your ongoing testing and providing feedback via bugzilla,
this is much appreciated,

Andreas

--
Andreas Ecker
Project Lead
http://qooxdoo.org


On Mon, 2009-12-14 at 10:16 -0500, Derrell Lipman wrote:

> I know i'm going to be ignored on this, but I feel sufficiently
> strongly about it that I really think it needs to be said.
>
> There have been a massive number of changes to trunk since the last
> pre-release. The version 1.0 release is likely (we all hope!) to be
> picked up by the press and tried and tested by many who have not used
> it. Although it's possible that nothing is broken, I think it is
> really, really dangerous to release this code as version 1.0 without
> doing pre-releases which are tested by many people first.
>
> I propose that Wednesday's planned release date be changed to a
> pre-release. I believe that Europe pretty much shuts down for a number
> of weeks at the end of the year. That would allow a month or so of
> testing and critical-bug fixing (only!), followed by at least one more
> pre-release with those bugs fixed, so that the actual 1.0 release in
> mid-January is much more properly field-tested. I understand the
> desire to meet the originally-publicized schedule, but this is the
> reputation of qooxdoo on the line. A 1.0 release is not the time to
> rush out a release that has had substantial change and not a lot of
> external testing.




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Re: Do pre-releases before the official release

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
I just eead that on Twitter : Flex 3.5 SDK released -- http://bit.ly/6vgy4h

I was thinking they started after qooxdoo but are now in 3.5 while we are only in 1.0.
Should we introduce more marketing weapons in the qooxdoo communication ?
Next big qx release should be qx 2.0 and not qx 1.2.

On Dec 14, 2009, at 20:02 , Andreas Ecker wrote:

Hi Derrell,

thanks for sharing your thoughts on the final ramp down for qooxdoo 1.0.
We both talked about that recently as well, so I know you have some
mixed feelings about getting release 1.0 out the door now.

qooxdoo has gotten a huge amount of testing, bug fixing, polishing and
field testing over the last months (if not the entire year). Besides the
full-time core devs many committers and users have contributed to this
process, and there has been a clear stabilization and convergence. The
framework in all of its main aspects now is sufficiently mature and
well-tested, ready for an 1.0 release, and we're going to ship it as
planned and communicated.

There always is the feeling of yet another round of testing, yet another
round of bug fixes, etc. It basically applies to any release, clearly
for "the" 1.0. That is quite understandable, and we always pay a lot of
attention to this ourselves.

Given the record and quality of qooxdoo development, feedback and
releases you shouldn't really need to worry when it comes to 1.0. It
will be an important milestone, but not the end of development, rather a
strong foundation for the challenges ahead. It will continue, there'll
be maintenance releases, a 1.1, a 1.5, a 2.0 at sometime in the future.
Over the years (almost 5 years now) many users even argued for a much
earlier "1.0" naming, mostly due to qooxdoo's maturity. Maybe we should
be at qooxdoo 4.0 now rather than 1.0? We have always been reluctant,
worked hard and in accordance with the public roadmap and are confident
for the upcoming release.

There have been many opportunities and requests to align with the
framework progress, e.g. releases like 0.8.3 or 1.0-beta1, also
involving users to working against SVN trunk with intense and fast
collaboration via bugzilla and mailing list. During the final phase we
keep updating the following snapshots frequently, inform the mailing
list and ask everyone for their ongoing testing:

* The latest demo apps have been put online for testing (like every
Friday) at http://demo.qooxdoo.org/devel/

* Also, the latest SDK (r21165) is available for your testing at:
http://demo.qooxdoo.org/snapshot/qooxdoo-1.0-sdk-r21165.zip

Please note: The code base has been switch internally to the 1.0 version
name already to allow for an end-to-end SDK testing. This is NOT yet the
final 1.0!

Thanks for your ongoing testing and providing feedback via bugzilla,
this is much appreciated,

Andreas

--
Andreas Ecker
Project Lead
http://qooxdoo.org


On Mon, 2009-12-14 at 10:16 -0500, Derrell Lipman wrote:
I know i'm going to be ignored on this, but I feel sufficiently
strongly about it that I really think it needs to be said.

There have been a massive number of changes to trunk since the last
pre-release. The version 1.0 release is likely (we all hope!) to be
picked up by the press and tried and tested by many who have not used
it. Although it's possible that nothing is broken, I think it is
really, really dangerous to release this code as version 1.0 without
doing pre-releases which are tested by many people first.

I propose that Wednesday's planned release date be changed to a
pre-release. I believe that Europe pretty much shuts down for a number
of weeks at the end of the year. That would allow a month or so of
testing and critical-bug fixing (only!), followed by at least one more
pre-release with those bugs fixed, so that the actual 1.0 release in
mid-January is much more properly field-tested. I understand the
desire to meet the originally-publicized schedule, but this is the
reputation of qooxdoo on the line. A 1.0 release is not the time to
rush out a release that has had substantial change and not a lot of
external testing.




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Re: Do pre-releases before the official release

redalastor


On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:09 AM, Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog <[hidden email]> wrote:
I just eead that on Twitter : Flex 3.5 SDK released -- http://bit.ly/6vgy4h

I was thinking they started after qooxdoo but are now in 3.5 while we are only in 1.0.
Should we introduce more marketing weapons in the qooxdoo communication ?
Next big qx release should be qx 2.0 and not qx 1.2.

Django started at the same time as qooxdoo and is at 1.1

For open source projects, 1.0 is a big deal and it means the devs are willing to put their reputation on the line. For proprietary ones, it means "buggy, use at your own risks". I wouldn't change the naming scheme. 

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Re: Do pre-releases before the official release

Jean-Noël Rivasseau
For open source projects, 1.0 is a big deal and it means the devs are willing to put their reputation on the line. For proprietary ones, it means "buggy, use at your own risks". I wouldn't change the naming scheme. 

Totally agree on this :)

Jean-Noel

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Re: Do pre-releases before the official release

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
In reply to this post by redalastor
I understand that, but you are thinking like smart people already convinced, and that don't need/care/sensible to marketing and communication :-)

On Dec 18, 2009, at 02:16 , Dan wrote:



On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:09 AM, Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog <[hidden email]> wrote:
I just eead that on Twitter : Flex 3.5 SDK released -- http://bit.ly/6vgy4h

I was thinking they started after qooxdoo but are now in 3.5 while we are only in 1.0.
Should we introduce more marketing weapons in the qooxdoo communication ?
Next big qx release should be qx 2.0 and not qx 1.2.

Django started at the same time as qooxdoo and is at 1.1

For open source projects, 1.0 is a big deal and it means the devs are willing to put their reputation on the line. For proprietary ones, it means "buggy, use at your own risks". I wouldn't change the naming scheme. 
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Re: Do pre-releases before the official release

redalastor


On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog <[hidden email]> wrote:
I understand that, but you are thinking like smart people already convinced, and that don't need/care/sensible to marketing and communication :-)

We are thinking like developers. I don't think we need the same marketing as managers. jquery is plenty successful and it's not at version 2 either (currently 1.3.2).

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Re: Do pre-releases before the official release

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
You are right, developers do not need the same communication as manager.
That doesn't mean we should only communicate to smart convinced developer like you and me.

JQuery ? Are you thinking about that stone age thing ?


On Dec 18, 2009, at 22:20 , Dan wrote:



On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog <[hidden email]> wrote:
I understand that, but you are thinking like smart people already convinced, and that don't need/care/sensible to marketing and communication :-)

We are thinking like developers. I don't think we need the same marketing as managers. jquery is plenty successful and it's not at version 2 either (currently 1.3.2).
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Re: Do pre-releases before the official release

Stéphane-2-3
Well, I would be confident in using a js-framwork which has been developed for 5 years with great community involvment which shows only 1.0 in regards to what it offers (compared to what other js-fw offers).
But I'm not a "decider" :-)


Before Printing, Think about Your Environmental Responsibility!
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On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog <[hidden email]> wrote:
You are right, developers do not need the same communication as manager.
That doesn't mean we should only communicate to smart convinced developer like you and me.

JQuery ? Are you thinking about that stone age thing ?


On Dec 18, 2009, at 22:20 , Dan wrote:



On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog <[hidden email]> wrote:
I understand that, but you are thinking like smart people already convinced, and that don't need/care/sensible to marketing and communication :-)

We are thinking like developers. I don't think we need the same marketing as managers. jquery is plenty successful and it's not at version 2 either (currently 1.3.2).
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Re: Do pre-releases before the official release

Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog
Yes, we are all confident like you are, here, but what about outside ?
Also, I was not talking about that version 1 but about future version.
I suggest not to wait 5 other years to reach version 2.

Anyway ... it is not the most important and it might not be a good idea and open source tradition are open source tradition :-)

On Dec 18, 2009, at 23:14 , Stéphane wrote:

Well, I would be confident in using a js-framwork which has been developed for 5 years with great community involvment which shows only 1.0 in regards to what it offers (compared to what other js-fw offers).
But I'm not a "decider" :-)


Before Printing, Think about Your Environmental Responsibility!
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On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog <[hidden email]> wrote:
You are right, developers do not need the same communication as manager.
That doesn't mean we should only communicate to smart convinced developer like you and me.

JQuery ? Are you thinking about that stone age thing ?


On Dec 18, 2009, at 22:20 , Dan wrote:



On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog <[hidden email]> wrote:
I understand that, but you are thinking like smart people already convinced, and that don't need/care/sensible to marketing and communication :-)

We are thinking like developers. I don't think we need the same marketing as managers. jquery is plenty successful and it's not at version 2 either (currently 1.3.2).
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